Safety or No Safety?

[Polaris210]

I'm new, so forgive me if this is an old topic (figure it has to be but tried looking & came up empty).

For concealed carry, all the prevailing wisdom seems to point to not bothering with a safety and carrying a topped-off mag with a chambered round.

For a newbie like me, can someone tell me if and when a safety is even desirable?

Thanks for any input.

 

[chief38]

In the simplest terms I would say if a pistol isn't 100% safe to carry with a round in the tube, it should not be carried. The last thing you would want
to do is to carry a Pistol that requires two hands to bring into action. I am not telling you what to do but I personally would not carry a 1911 style pistol because to keep it in the ready, one would have to carry it cocked and locked (condition #1) which to me is scary and unsafe as the thumb safety is too easily knocked off accidentally - and I am a HUGE 1911 fan - but NOT for CCW. You then have a scary easy to pull trigger waiting to go off upon drawing said pistol. . I'm sure others will strongly disagree, so this is just my personal opinion. That is why so many carry a J Frame revolver EDC. While not as high capacity, it is inherently more safe than an Autoloader is.

As a self proclaimed Newbie - you would be a WHOLE LOT better off at least starting with a revolver - IMO.

 

[otasan56]

I carry my Glock 17 in a holster Condition 0.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I'm not a newbe and I'm not an old hand. Somewhere in the middle I guess. My current carry pistol doesn't have an external safety on it. My first pistol was a DA/SA with a combo safety/decocker.

At first I carried the pistol decocked with the safety engaged. I took a couple self defense/tactical courses and found even after practicing my draw daily for quite some time, under stress, I'd occasionally fumble with the safety. You can find videos online of people fumbling with the safety when they really needed it and it usually doesn't work well for them.

After I realized carrying with the safety engaged could be an issue I did some research and realized carrying decocked with the safety off was safe. I starting only using the safety when holstering.

Also about that time, I started shooting some local IDPA matches. Even under the very light stress of a timed match, I noticed my first DA shot with my DS/SA pistol was either really horrible or really slow. From the training and reading I had been doing, the consensus was in an SD encounter, the first shot was the most important.

I've since switched to pistols that have the same trigger pull on all shots, either a striker fired semi-auto or DAO revolver, no external safety.

That's what I found worked for me. YMMV.

 

[Polaris210]

Thanks. Understood, and makes sense.

To probe a little deeper, then, any functional difference between carrying a weapon with the available safety off and carrying the same weapon without a safety?

Just wondering which would be the smarter purchase.

 

[Jeppo]

I think it depends on the safety itself. I have pistols where the safety lever is so large that carrying it "un-safe" does not assure it remains in that state (i.e. my FS M&P 9). On the other hand, I have pistols where it seems highly unlikely the safety state could be changed unintentionally (i.e., the Bodyguard 380).

 

[Ziggy2525]

Thanks. Understood, and makes sense.

To probe a little deeper, then, any functional difference between carrying a weapon with the available safety off and carrying the same weapon without a safety?

Just wondering which would be the smarter purchase.

Functionally similar, but you'll have to decide what you're comfortable with. For me, I wouldn't get the safety if I had the choice. Just one more thing to think about. But I agree with Jeppo, some of it will depend on the pistol and how the safety is built.

I'll go out on a limb and say whatever you start with, you'll probably change.

 

[Mister X]

Thanks. Understood, and makes sense.

To probe a little deeper, then, any functional difference between carrying a weapon with the available safety off and carrying the same weapon without a safety?

Just wondering which would be the smarter purchase.

I would say most people would not recommend carrying a single action pistol like a 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged, but a lot of this is subjective and in most cases there is no definitive right or wrong answer. I've personally never been entirely comfortable with the stock Glock trigger and chose to install the heavier NY trigger springs in all my Glocks.

 

[Rpg]

I'm new, so forgive me if this is an old topic (figure it has to be but tried looking & came up empty).

For concealed carry, all the prevailing wisdom seems to point to not bothering with a safety and carrying a topped-off mag with a chambered round.

For a newbie like me, can someone tell me if and when a safety is even desirable?

Thanks for any input.

This largely depends on your training.

I'm a 1911 guy: my training and experience make operating a thumb safety just part of the manual of arms in gun handling.

I most frequently carry a Colt Commander (the Commander is the light weight model, the Combat Commander is all steel) concealed: cocked and locked, round in the chamber with full magazine. In over 35 years, the thumb safety has NEVER disengaged inadvertently.

Of course, I've accumulated many, many thousands of repetitions presenting the firearm (drawing from the leather) so operating the thumb safety is a matter of muscle memory for me.

For me, a pistol with a thumb safety is always more desirable than a pistol ('pistol' is the designation for semiautomatic handguns, the term doesn't include revolvers) without a thumb safety.

Overall, there are many more accidental discharges (ADs) with Glocks and other pistols incorporating some form of trigger safety than with pistols equipped with thumb safeties. Most commonly, these ADs occur when holstering the pistol- finger in the trigger guard is the culprit. This stems from inadequate training and practice.

You'll undoubtedly hear from folks who will lecture about how many safeties are incorporated into trigger safety pistols: that's truly irrelevant. The issue is training and practice: lots of training and practice without regard to type of safety.

For the majority of civilians who want to carry concealed but don't have good training and don't or can't practice their presentation A LOT, a revolver makes sense from a safety perspective. Revolvers are much less likely to accidentally discharge than pistols.

To summarize: for me, a thumb safety is very desirable. So much so that I prefer them to non thumb safety pistols.

Revolvers require more work to learn to shoot well than most pistols but are much safer than pistols in the hands of a newbie to handguns.

Lots of folks say that they don't use the thumb safety on their pistols. These tend to be folks who haven't had adequate training or won't put in the work to learn the manual of arms of their pistols.

These folks rationalize that they don't want to have the additional complication of operating a thumb safety in the heat and stress of a self defense situation.

With adequate training and practice, this just isn't an issue. Operating a thumb safety isn't 'just one more thing to think about'. It is something that happens automatically with adequate practice presenting the handgun.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

The way I see it, a 1911 is pretty safe cocked and locked, and FOR ME the safety is very reliably and naturally disengaged on drawing. This is probably true for some other guns (CZ75?), but certainly not true for all. I prefer a Series 80 system, and own only the Colt and Para-Ord pistols of the more-or-less-1911 design, because of fairly reliable rumors that the original has occasionally been known to discharge when dropped. Not sure that I believe that those rumors apply, but I don't mind the Series 80 system, even though its detractors have some good points, also.

As far as those pistols which are revolvers, they suffer from the same problem as a Glock; they discharge when the trigger is pulled. Usually they need a stronger pull, and many have a hammer which can be held down while holstering, but they are not foolproof. All guns require special care in holstering.

I, too, recommend a revolver for the beginner (and for myself), not because it is or isn't any safer to carry, but because it is MUCH easier to load and unload safely in a non-range environment.

 

[ContinentalOp]

You're going to get a lot of differing opinions, and a lot of it depends on the specific gun being discussed as well as how much of an investment in terms of time and effort one is willing to make.

My own personal preference is for a gun with no manual safety and a long, heavier pull. I carry a 642, which is a DAO revolver with a heavier, longer trigger pull. I believe factory specs are around 12 lbs, give or take. I'm able to shoot it effectively. My home defense gun is a Beretta 92FS, which I keep decocked with the safety off (though I still swipe the safety to ensure it's off when handling). When I had a Glock 23 I used the NY1 trigger spring with the "-" connector, which kept the factory pull weight, about 5.5-6.0lbs, but with resistance over the full length of the trigger pull.

I also have some experience with 1911s, having owned two and putting at least a few thousand rounds (and probably 10x as many dry fire manipulations) between them. In that time I never failed to deactivate the thumb and grip safeties. However, I've never had to do that while someone was trying to kill me.

Also, not every gun with a manual safety is equipped with a lever that can be disengaged easily under stress due to its size and/or shape.

To me, it's about balancing safety, accessibility, and shootability under stress. A DAO pistol, revolver or semi-auto, probably does the best job of balancing that. A DA/SA semi-auto carried decocked with no manual safety, or the manual safety left off, is a little more complex, but still achieves that balance for the first shot. I don't consider the DA-to-SA transition much of a hurdle, but others might. Decocking is an additional step, but it occurs after shooting. A semi-auto with a manual safety also adds to the complexity, but failing to disengage the manual safety under stress renders the gun inoperable when you need it; failing to decock a DA/SA semi-auto can be a problem, but it doesn't keep you from using the gun to defend yourself. Then again, many advocates of keeping a manual safety engaged will point to that working in your favor if an attacker attempts, or succeeds in, disarming you and can't figure out how to make the gun fire.

While I think a gun with a manual thumb safety, like a 1911, can be a perfectly viable self defense gun choice (many, many people have successfully used a 1911 for self defense over its history), I think it does require more training and practice to effectively use it under stress than a simple draw-then-pull-trigger pistol, especially for someone new to guns.

A DA or striker-fired gun is perfectly safe to carry with a round chambered (assuming, of course, the gun and all its passive safeties are in proper working order). While a heavier and/or longer trigger pull may mitigate the risk of an unintentional discharge, it doesn't eliminate the need for safe gun handling. Neither does having a gun with a manual safety.

Everybody has to figure out what their balance is between safety, accessibility, and shootability. What works for me may not work for you. But generally speaking, when it comes to self defense I believe that simpler tends to work better.

Just my opinion.

 

[Whitwabit]

Only one of my carry pistols has a safety .. That's my BUG a Sig P238HD .. which is a baby 1911.. It only has a safety on the left side which is completely covered with the holster used with it .. Carried cocked and locked ..

Of my other carries 1 is striker fired no safety and the other 2 are de-cockers no safety's .. trigger pull is between 5.5 and 6.8 pounds on all of them .. so just over a 1 pound difference between the three !! all three triggers feel very similar to each other .. these are carried Condition 2 -  This is a magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer forward.  For revolvers, it would be rounds inserted into cylinder, cylinder locked into place, hammer forward.

I shoot 2 to 3 times a month and I also practice several dry fire programs each week spending another 30 minutes to an hour .. Average monthly practice times between 7 and 10 hours .. lower during the winter when out door range time is limited ..

 

[andyo5]

My preference is a thumb safety. I do have two Glocks, but just couldn't get comfortable carrying them. A 5 1/2 pound trigger is not much heavier than a 1911 trigger. And I don't consider the trigger "safety" as a real safety device. I plan to sell my Glocks and replace them with a M&P 2.0 with a thumb safety. My current carry gun is a 45 Shield with a thumb safety. I love it!
PS: If you get a gun with a thumb safety, you can always decide not to use the safety. But you can't go the other way.

 

[Talldog]

My personal preference is no safety, but not with a really light trigger.

 

[Stevens]

I prefer a thumb safety on my pistols.
Steve W

 

[Jaysq]

Anytime you are holstering your gun clicking the safety on is a good idea. Once it is holstered, you can click the safety off. Anytime you are just handing your gun, clicking it on can add safety. My Shield has a safety and if I were to buy another one, I would get one with a safety.

 

[NewToGuns17]

When I first started to carry, I would carry with no round in the chamber. My gun at the time was a walther ccp (has a safety). After that I got a shield no safety and carried loaded, round in chamber. Go figure. The trigger has a hinged design studio that is is "safety". I now also have an m&p 2.0, safetyless. No accidents. If you don't train with a safety, don't get a safety. I think a safety is good for a range gun when either teaching someone new or handing off a gun.

 

[Arik]

Don't believe in safeties unless a gun specifically needs one.....1911/hipower

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[American1776]

I carry 1911's, CZ 75b, Da/Sa autos (Beretta 92 S&W Gen 2, and Ruger P90), and also revolvers.

I have no problem carrying the 1911 cocked and locked. My holsters always have a thumb break strap that goes between the hammer and slide. The safety on my Colt 1911 is very crisp and stays locked until I forcefully depress it.

The CZ 75b is carried cocked and locked too.

What I WILL NEVER carry nor own, are the striker fired polymer pistols with the short, 5 lbs. trigger pull and no safety. Carrying one of those, in my opinion, is akin to carrying a 1911 with the grip safety taped down, the hammer back, and the thumb safety OFF. No way. Nobody is perfect, so we all make mistakes and put the finger on the trigger. When (not if) I make that mistake, I don't want a short 5 lbs. trigger between me and an AD.

For me, either a thumb safety, or a long, heavy DA first trigger pull.

 

[Arik]

I carry 1911's, CZ 75b, Da/Sa autos (Beretta 92 S&W Gen 2, and Ruger P90), and also revolvers.

I have no problem carrying the 1911 cocked and locked. My holsters always have a thumb break strap that goes between the hammer and slide. The safety on my Colt 1911 is very crisp and stays locked until I forcefully depress it.

The CZ 75b is carried cocked and locked too.

What I WILL NEVER carry nor own, are the striker fired polymer pistols with the short, 5 lbs. trigger pull and no safety. Carrying one of those, in my opinion, is akin to carrying a 1911 with the grip safety taped down, the hammer back, and the thumb safety OFF. No way. Nobody is perfect, so we all make mistakes and put the finger on the trigger. When (not if) I make that mistake, I don't want a short 5 lbs. trigger between me and an AD.

For me, either a thumb safety, or a long, heavy DA first trigger pull.

The mistakes are made based on your training/lack of. That's what muscle memory is about. Also why it's important to have and practice with one gun and one style.

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