.38 S&W reamed to .38 Special?

[traveller11]

Thank you for posting the photo of the empty .38 Special casing, fired in a converted .38 S&W revolver. I'm hoping you will be able to help me with something that has puzzled me for some time now.

Below is a link to a photo of four empty .38 Special casings that were also fired in a converted "Victory" model .38 S&W.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/120310/FIG03_120310.jpg

You may recognize these as the four empty casings from the rounds fired by Lee Harvey Oswald into Officer Tippit on November 22, 1963, shortly after the assassination of JFK. Oswald's revolver began life as a .38 S&W "Victory" model revolver, sold to Britain in WW II under the Lend-Lease Program, and it had been converted to .38 Special some time after WW II.

These casings display the same bulge near the centre you pointed out in your photo, and this is the part that has puzzled me.

As you likely know, the shorter .38 S&W casing is .3855" in diameter at the neck, and gets gradually wider toward the base, where it is .3865" in diameter. With the .38 Special casing being a uniform .379" in diameter, and longer than the .38 S&W casing, I would imagine the reaming of the chamber only involved reaming that part of the chamber forward of the neck of the .38 S&W casing.

My question is, with the rear part of the converted chamber being .3855-.3865" on a uniform taper, why are the empty casings only bulged in the middle? Why do we not see an empty casing uniformly bulged right to the base (rim) of the casing? Was something added to the base of the chamber to stabilize the narrow .379" casing in the wider .3865" chamber? Is this why the .38 Special casings were difficult to extract after being fired in these Victory conversions?

Thank you in advance.

It just looks so odd. At the top of the bulge, you can see a definite break in the casing from where the chamber goes from .3855" to .379", as one would expect.

In my eyes, the bottom of the bulge shows an almost identical break, as though the chamber had a short insert at this point to bring the diameter up to .379".

Which brings up another question. If only a small portion of the neck of the .38 Special cartridge was in contact with the chamber, and the rear of the cartridge had a .007" gap between it and the chamber, would this sloppy fit not somehow affect the performance of this cartridge?

If the rear of the chamber was .3865" in diameter, why would the casings be difficult to extract, if the stories are to be believed?

NOTE: Sorry about that. I meant to quote DWalt's post but accidentally quoted my original post.

 

[Hondo44]

It just looks so odd. At the top of the bulge, you can see a definite break in the casing from where the chamber goes from .3855" to .379", as one would expect.

1] In my eyes, the bottom of the bulge shows an almost identical break, as though the chamber had a short insert at this point to bring the diameter up to .379".

2] Which brings up another question. If only a small portion of the neck of the .38 Special cartridge was in contact with the chamber, and the rear of the cartridge had a .007" gap between it and the chamber, would this sloppy fit not somehow affect the performance of this cartridge?

3] If the rear of the chamber was .3865" in diameter, why would the casings be difficult to extract, if the stories are to be believed?

Welcome to the forum.

1] Look in the bottom of an empty 38 Spl case, actually any modern case and the reason for the "break" in the case will become apparent. The solid case head DWalt explained comes up to the break line you see. Below that, the .011" case wall ends and the case is no longer hollow! How can it expand? The case HEAD is taller than the case RIM.

2] No, the top portion is enough to seal off gases under the relatively low 38 Spl pressure.

3] They usually aren't difficult to extract unless other factors exist. Like crud or corrosion in the chambers, or cheap (therefore thin walled cases) that expand into coarse machining marks.

Hope that helps,

 

[bedbugbilly]

I'm scratching my head over what anyone would want to shoot 38 special in a 38 S & W? Yea, you might not get split casings but once they are resized as mentioned in one post, then reload with 38 S & W dies????

If you're going to reload, then buy the proper brass and cast the right size bullets. Starling sells 38 W & W brass so there is no excuse to not use the proper brass. A 38 Spl. takes a .358 mold. The 38 S 7 W takes a .360 mold. .002 difference and it may not seem like a lot but using an undersize .38 cast bullet is not only probably going to give you poor accuracy, it will also likely lead your barrel.

A person can do what they want to but as far as I'm concerned, shooting the wrong cartridge might possible be able to be done but it's not the smartest thing to do - but to each their own.

I've seen 380 shot out of 9mm as well - but it's not the smartest thing to do. An 8mm (8 X 57) Mauser cartridge can be chambered in a 30-06 in a lot of cases but the difference is in the bullet diameter. Yep, all of the cartridges I've mentioned headspace on the throat but the point is - "just 'cause you can doesn't mean you should". The 38 S & W cartridge and components are too available to not use them.

 

[DWalt]

If one chooses to reload .38 Special brass which has been fired in a modified .38 S&W chamber, the best approach to get any case life is to resize only about the front 1/2" of the expanded case.

 

[Hondo44]

I'm scratching my head over what anyone would want to shoot 38 special in a 38 S & W? Yea, you might not get split casings but once they are resized as mentioned in one post, then reload with 38 S & W dies????

If you're going to reload, then buy the proper brass and cast the right size bullets. Starling sells 38 W & W brass so there is no excuse to not use the proper brass. A 38 Spl. takes a .358 mold. The 38 S 7 W takes a .360 mold. .002 difference and it may not seem like a lot but using an undersize .38 cast bullet is not only probably going to give you poor accuracy, it will also likely lead your barrel.

A person can do what they want to but as far as I'm concerned, shooting the wrong cartridge might possible be able to be done but it's not the smartest thing to do - but to each their own.

I've seen 380 shot out of 9mm as well - but it's not the smartest thing to do. An 8mm (8 X 57) Mauser cartridge can be chambered in a 30-06 in a lot of cases but the difference is in the bullet diameter. Yep, all of the cartridges I've mentioned headspace on the throat but the point is - "just 'cause you can doesn't mean you should". The 38 S & W cartridge and components are too available to not use them.

The OP didn't say he reloads and the difference in price between 38 S&W and 38 Spl ammo makes this discussion a valid one.

Equating this old 38/200 revolver phenomenon to the unsafe practices you bring up, is not relatively equivalent and therefore irrelevant.

 

[Baculd]

Man it depends what year is it ! But 375 for an old one its very good price!

 

[Waveski]

Baculd , Welcome to the forum.

The "converted" BSR is not at all rare , and has had the value pretty well reamed out of it. The value of anything is equivalent to what someone is willing to pay. Me , I have an aversion to reamed BSRs , and the deformed .38 special casings they produce. (Also , pounding on the ejector rod with the heel of my hand gets old real quick like...) I would much rather have an original in poor condition than a "conversion" in good condition.

But , that's just me. Enjoy the forum.

 

[traveller11]

"(Also , pounding on the ejector rod with the heel of my hand gets old real quick like...)"

Hello Waveski

Would you please elaborate on this comment you made to Baculd in the previous post? According to some members, the .38 Special empty casings are not at all difficult to extract from a .38 S&W revolver converted to shoot .38 Special cartridges, yet this comment would seem to contradict that.

 

[WR Moore]

Just for historical interest, several years ago I saw a British marked Victory that had been converted to .38 Spl over in Britain. The pistol had been marked by the noted gunmaker (can't recall, but I recognized the name) over there who did the conversion and was re-proofed for the new cartridge and so marked. Very nice job and while the expansion on the base of the fired case was noticeable, it wasn't really all that bad.

So, a quality conversion can be done, it's just generally not seen.

 

[Old Corp]

No way to ever know, but importers must've converted a jillion of those .38 S&W Victory models. And chopped how many barrels off? Seems they turn up all the time.
Have seen them in pawn and gun shops with routinely a 'rare/collectible' price on them. Almost funny.

 

[TomkinsSP]

With the encouragement of others who have done so previously. I tried reloading .38 S&W brass with 148 grain .358 lhbwc. Used Bullseye same as with .38 special. Manual gives a < 8000 psi pressure for tis load 148 grain wadcutter seated flush. Very accurate out of an old S&W break top. They were seated about halfway out so the OAL was the same as 145 grain LRN, or a .38 special wadcutter seated flush. The bullets I used were pan lubed, so really only suitable for playing around. I am told the skirt expands, seemed to for me.

 

[raljr1]

I keep hearing how hard it is to find 38 S&W, yet I never seem to have any trouble finding it...generally cost about $35 a box, and I know sometimes 38 spl can be had for half that on sale, but I can always find it.

Robert

 

[mrchuck]

38S&W ammo is on the shelf at Academy Sports in Mesquite,TX.
I bought some for my perfect shape Smith & Wesson revolver I posted about several months ago.

 

[Waveski]

Traveller11 -

As WR Moore alluded to in #29 , there is a wide range of quality to be found when it comes to "converted" BSRs. I use the quotation marks because , in my opinion , reaming a .38 SW to accept a .38 sp. cartridge is not a true conversion if there is excessive play between the .38 sp. cartridge and the charge hole wall. Now , if the charge holes were somehow sleeved or the cylinder swapped out the .38 sp. cartridge could fit properly , though there would be an excess of a few 1,000's in the bore. I am sure that there are high quality conversions out there ; I have not personally seen one.

As to pounding the ejector rod , my (briefly owned) converted BSR expanded and occasionally split the .38 sp. casings , resulting in difficulty of ejection. Hence the sore hand. I was soured by the experience , sold the BSR , and put the proceeds towards a very nice '42 DSC marked AOP (Arkansas Ordinance Plant).

That's my story.

 

[Jim Watson]

Side note. If you make cases for your No 3 New Model .38-44 Target by cutting .357 Maximum to cylinder length, you will get about that much bulge. But if you size with a .38 S&W (or .38 Super) die, you will not be working the brass back and forth and it will last pretty well. Until I sold the gun to a collector, at any rate.

 

[traveller11]

Traveller11 -

As WR Moore alluded to in #29 , there is a wide range of quality to be found when it comes to "converted" BSRs. I use the quotation marks because , in my opinion , reaming a .38 SW to accept a .38 sp. cartridge is not a true conversion if there is excessive play between the .38 sp. cartridge and the charge hole wall. Now , if the charge holes were somehow sleeved or the cylinder swapped out the .38 sp. cartridge could fit properly , though there would be an excess of a few 1,000's in the bore. I am sure that there are high quality conversions out there ; I have not personally seen one.

As to pounding the ejector rod , my (briefly owned) converted BSR expanded and occasionally split the .38 sp. casings , resulting in difficulty of ejection. Hence the sore hand. I was soured by the experience , sold the BSR , and put the proceeds towards a very nice '42 DSC marked AOP (Arkansas Ordinance Plant).

That's my story.

Thank you for that, Waveski. That is valuable information.

If you have read my earlier posts, you will know that I am a researcher of the JFK assassination, which occurred 54 years ago yesterday. Also slain that day was a Dallas patrolman, Officer JD Tippit; killed by one of the .38 Special "Victory" conversions we are discussing.

The reason I am so interested in the possibility of empty cartridges being difficult to extract from a .38 Special "Victory" revolver is that several eyewitnesses to the shooting observed Oswald emptying his .38 Special "Victory" revolver of spent cases immediately after the shooting. However, instead of him emptying all six empty casings quickly and easily in one push with the ejector rod, and leaving all six casings at one location, the witnesses stated they saw him shaking the revolver, and only removing one or two casings at a time. This was corroborated by the casings not all being found in one location but, rather, strewn in a path as Oswald made his escape on foot.

Of course, though, this is still circumstantial evidence, and only really helps to prove the type of revolver used in the killing.

Once again, thanks.

 

[traveller11]

It is also interesting that you have pointed out the difference in bullet diameter between the smaller .38 Special (.358") and the .38 S&W (.361").

Below is an evidence photo, presented to the Warren Commission, of a bullet removed from the body of Officer JD Tippit.

https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI...media/images/33/34/33-3357a.gif?download=true

If the photo is enlarged, it can be seen that the rifling marks, left on the bullet by the .38 S&W barrel riflings, are not very deep at all into the surface of the bullet.

Could this be accounted for by the .003" difference in bullet diameter between .38 Special and .38 S&W?

 

[Hondo44]

It is also interesting that you have pointed out the difference in bullet diameter between the smaller .38 Special (.358") and the .38 S&W (.361").

Below is an evidence photo, presented to the Warren Commission, of a bullet removed from the body of Officer JD Tippit.

If the photo is enlarged, it can be seen that the rifling marks, left on the bullet by the .38 S&W barrel riflings, are not very deep at all into the surface of the bullet.

Could this be accounted for by the .003" difference in bullet diameter between .38 Special and .38 S&W?

Precisely.

 

[Hondo44]

Traveller11 -

As WR Moore alluded to in #29 , there is a wide range of quality to be found when it comes to "converted" BSRs. I use the quotation marks because , in my opinion , reaming a .38 SW to accept a .38 sp. cartridge is not a true conversion if there is excessive play between the .38 sp. cartridge and the charge hole wall. Now , if the charge holes were somehow sleeved or the cylinder swapped out the .38 sp. cartridge could fit properly , though there would be an excess of a few 1,000's in the bore. I am sure that there are high quality conversions out there ; I have not personally seen one. That's my story.

Generally speaking:

1] The quick and dirty conversions to 38 Spl were done by US importers of yesteryear who then dumped them on the US market in the $29.95 price range by the thousands; with and w/o chopped barrels. These are the most numerous, unfortunately.

2] The proper conversions with relined chambers and barrel were done by well known, reputable gunmakers/gunsmiths in England before importation to the US. Several of those have been presented in these pages over the years. These are much less common.

3] Occasionally we see BSRs imported that were and are properly converted using 38 Spl barrels and cylinders from way back when right up to the present. These are in the minority and usually done on an individual basis.

4] We also see #1 and #2 type conversion methods above done on a one at a time basis in the US by local gunsmiths and in garages. How many done this way is anybody's guess.

5] Unconverted examples are generally in collectible condition, been in collections for years, and only occasionally come on the market or are found "in-the-wild".

 

[Absalom]

An addendum to Jim's excellent summary:

An intermediate species combining features of Jim's points 1 and 2 is actually the most commonly encountered British conversion on the US collector market; they frequently show up on auction sites like Gunbroker.

Those are the guns converted in London by Cogswell & Harrison. They are easily recognized as the company stamped its name into the left side of the frame. They did convert to .38 Special without sleeving, and had the guns proofed at the London proofhouse for .38 Special. The barrel was shortened to about 3.5 inches, leaving the lug, a new front sight was fitted, and the guns were refinished, usually blued, and received very nice proprietary checkered wood stocks which are actually quite superior in grippiness to the originals.

(Pictures aren't mine, but the best I could find at short notice )