Brand new BLEW UP IN MY FACE ON SHOT#16

[WR Moore]

OP stated "he wiped it down". That doesn't satisfy the pre first firing cleaning & lubrication requirements I have.

To answer another post: OOB is a label that generally gets attached to these events. Exact root cause is frequently undetermined/not released. If someone is really, truly interested, the firearm and remaining ammo would need to go to someone like HP White along with a substantial check. Based upon experience, that check would be upward of $1,000.

As I noted in my earlier post, this type of event isn't exactly in the same class as hens teeth. It's one reason GI ammo uses a primer with a slightly harder cup.

 

[Dad_Roman]

OP stated "he wiped it down". That doesn't satisfy the pre first firing cleaning & lubrication requirements I have.

I would like to know your thoughts on this.

I have had a BCG recently that failed to cycle properly (fired, cycled, but would not pick up a fresh round) A new one solved this problem. (Bear Creek Brand)

While I field strip, clean and lube all new stuff, on BCG's I like to soak them dripping wet, then wipe down the excess.

 

[bamashooter]

As times change, so do people. I'd say more folks than not today, not necessarily the OP, buy a firearm and break their neck getting to a range. It's a buy now, use now society. Regardless of what the item might be. No cleaning, no inspection (in most cases they wouldn't know what they're looking at anyway), just blast away then freak when an issue arises. Blame the "***" firearm, etc. Insane but true. Don't even need to witness these shortcomings. Just read some of the questions in assorted firearms and automotive forums. One positive however. When questioned in forums regarding first cleaning, lubing, etc a firearm prior to initial firing, the majority of those who don't do a preliminary cleaning will admit to that.

 

[WR Moore]

I would like to know your thoughts on this.

I have had a BCG recently that failed to cycle properly (fired, cycled, but would not pick up a fresh round) A new one solved this problem. (Bear Creek Brand)

While I field strip, clean and lube all new stuff, on BCG's I like to soak them dripping wet, then wipe down the excess.

There are rails on the BC at roughly 2, 5, 7 and 11 o'clock that need lube, they are what bears on the upper receiver. The sides of the gas block could use bit of lube also. The rest of the carrier only needs enough lube/protection to prevent rust

The bolt and it's recess in the carrier and the cam slot need a light film. Frankly, I prefer a dry film lube (Dri-Slide), but I've used others. I avoid petroleum lubes in the bolt recess of the carrier to reduce carbon formation.

This lube system has worked well for me in a variety of climates and temperatures. Dunking your BCG is neither necessary nor desirable-special circumstances excepted.

 

[Dad_Roman]

Thanks for that input. That gives me a lot to consider.

 

[C J]

While I field strip, clean and lube all new stuff, on BCG's I like to soak them dripping wet, then wipe down the excess.

You can do more harm than good with this procedure. Burned powder and other particulates will accumulate in excess lube possibly causing a malfunction later that you wouldn't have had. I've seen guns that people spray with WD-40 after every mag that have so much gunk in them you can't force the bolt to operate. That's an extreme situation but it shows the tendency of wet lubes to attract and hold matter that can often become a problem. Lubes with teflon build up on their own as well. The teflon will build up.

I learned about this the hard way on a bicycle actually. I sprayed the gears with a teflon based lube before I rode the bike and eventually the chain would skip gears and come off completely because there was so much buildup between the gears. I don't know why I didn't notice it but I didn't. At any rate that was a much worse situation than a firearm could ever tolerate. I actually started to buy an SKS once that was so gummed up the bolt could not work without considerable force being applied to it and the problem was all gunk buildup.

Dry lube is much better if you can get by with using it. I barely coat action components to keep them from rusting unless I'm going to store the gun a very long time without firing it. I may have left some to rust rather than build up. Rust can be fairly easy to clean up. Easier than fired powder in lube gunk.

 

[Kodiakco]

How/where to lube an AR-15.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[bamashooter]

Run 'em wet boyz!

 

[DWalt]

I have investigated at least five incidents of what appeared to be OOB firings involving both M16A2s and M4s using GI ammo and was never able to pin down an exact cause. In one case I was on the scene just a few minutes after the incident (at Robins AFB GA in 2007) and was able to capture all the evidence before someone else screwed it up. It involved a female airman and she was really shook up. Unfortunately, the shooter's memories of exactly what happened were not good due to emotional trauma. At least there were no shooter physical injuries associated with any of those incidents. I remember that in two situations, the cam pin was fractured at the firing pin hole (presumably as a result of the blowup). None resulted in what I'd consider catastrophic damage to the upper receiver or barrel. It's been too long ago for me to remember much specific detail. I used to have pictures of the damaged guns and components, and may still have those stored on a hard drive somewhere. I'm not going to look for them.

For sure, an AR action will NOT fail under excessive pressure if it has complete lockup of the bolt head into the barrel extension. Colt has demonstrated that using cartridges having extreme overloads of fast powder, producing peak chamber pressures of well over 100,000 psi. And to a lesser extent, so have I by once performing a series of experiments involving in-bore collisions using bullets stuck in the barrel at different distances from the chamber. All that ever happened was barrel bulging, never action failure or barrel splitting. Therefore, an AR blowup must be the result of an OOB firing condition. The unanswered question is how did that happen? And there may be multiple reasons.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

As mentioned, without pictures and documentation of the AMMO, this is all hearsay and even then SPECULATION!

Hearsay is defined as "an out of court statement by another presented to prove the truth of the matter asserted." The statement may very well be as true as the day is long, but unless the maker can be presented for cross examination it will not be allowed. Speculation on the other hand is defined as a WAG (wild-assed guess). Most of this appears to be WAG as opposed to hearsay in the truest sense. When the out of court statement is from one who has actual knowlege of the matter asserted it is hearsay. If the out of court statement is made by someone after reading internet accounts, it is double hearsay at best but more likely a WAG-or in the words of the poster Speculation
Sorry....one of my pet peeves is the misuse of hearsay.

 

[WR Moore]

"Wet" is not dripping-at least when I was introduced to the AR system. And, the flour like sand of Iraq just might justify that, don't know, wasn't there. "Dripping" generally ends up depositing significant lube in the receiver extension, where it doesn't belong and can compromise normal operation.

Caj, ever hear of the SWAG? Scientific WAG-source has specific knowledge that may/may not apply to the situation.

With that in mind, in a post above, the broken cam pins might well have happened during unlocking of the previous round, trapping the firing pin in a forward position and enabling a slam fire. In the half dozen or so events I've seen, the cam pin was intact. Again, a situation where someone would need to attempt to duplicate the event.

 

[jhnttrpp]

Hearsay is defined as "an out of court statement by another presented to prove the truth of the matter asserted." The statement may very well be as true as the day is long, but unless the maker can be presented for cross examination it will not be allowed. Speculation on the other hand is defined as a WAG (wild-assed guess). Most of this appears to be WAG as opposed to hearsay in the truest sense. When the out of court statement is from one who has actual knowlege of the matter asserted it is hearsay. If the out of court statement is made by someone after reading internet accounts, it is double hearsay at best but more likely a WAG-or in the words of the poster Speculation
Sorry....one of my pet peeves is the misuse of hearsay.

noun
1.
unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge:
I pay no attention to hearsay.
2.
an item of idle or unverified information or gossip; rumor:
a malicious hearsay.

 

[moosedog]

I'll be interested to see what the final conclusion is on this mishap, but one thing is for sure. You can't say enough about the proper use of eye and ear protection and maybe shooting gloves too. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Big Shrek]

Makes it so much more important to never use the magazine or mag well
as a handhold...as some schmucks have a tendancy to do "Hollywood-Style".

Also why folks have worked so hard to get the Cup & Saucer hold out of pistol
shooters, as the same thing happens when a semi-auto has an event...
if your hand is underneath the mag well, it's gonna BURN and likely also
get a nice dose of shrapnel.

Coming over from revolvers, it was a hard habit to break...but seeing one
poor bugger get burned helps one change a habit mighty quick

 

[bamashooter]

Makes it so much more important to never use the magazine or mag well
as a handhold...as some schmucks have a tendancy to do "Hollywood-Style".

Also why folks have worked so hard to get the Cup & Saucer hold out of pistol
shooters, as the same thing happens when a semi-auto has an event...
if your hand is underneath the mag well, it's gonna BURN and likely also
get a nice dose of shrapnel.

Coming over from revolvers, it was a hard habit to break...but seeing one
poor bugger get burned helps one change a habit mighty quick

Very common within the ranks when I deployed at times. I'd just shake my head. No idea how that ignorance started but it seems to have transitioned over to the civilian "tacticool" world.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Welcome...quite the introduction and glad you are OK. I would document everything to the extent possible (photos, parts), save the ammunition and contact factory customer service tomorrow. If you were using factory ammunition, chances are good they will replace it under warranty.

I am not super familiar with the workings of the AR, but I don't think the trigger will drop the hammer unless the gun is fully in battery, so I suspect an overpressure load. Others here may have equally possible theories.

Never had one fire out of battery myself but was told years ago that they would do that if the disconector and hammer were not timed to operate correctly . Guy that told me that was a Marine Armorer and had built Sniper rifles and serviced M 16's for the Marine Corps since they started using them . He was specifically referring to the full auto version but did say it could happen in semi as well but was not as likely . He showed me a full auto that had fired out of battery destroying the upper and damaging the lower as well .

Eddie

 

[Rastoff]

You guys need to understand what needs to happen for the gun to fire before you say something fired out of battery.

The BCG will not allow the hammer to contact the firing pin if it's not all the way forward. So, if the BCG isn't fully forward, an OOB is impossible.

If the BCG is fully forward, but the bolt is not locked, the gun could fire and blow the BCG and bolt back which could cause a result as though it were fired OOB. However, for this to happen the bolt cam must be left out upon assembly. If the bolt cam is left out, the gun will fire once and the bolt will fall out the front of the BCG. So, likely not this.

An OOB event can happen if a foreign object gets on the bolt face or if the firing pin is stuck forward. Then the primer can be struck hard enough to fire the round before it's fully seated in the chamber.

 

[Jim Watson]

Anecdote Alert:
I am very suspicious of any claim of "fired out of battery" but I was once present for a strange combination that I do not think to be a coincidence.

I was waiting at the range for the XC match to wrap up and standing by for my LR shoot. There was a cease fire and a considerable gathering at the firing line, then another. I went over to check it out.
Not one, but two ARs had kaBoomed with damage to the rifles.
Rifles had been assembled from commodity parts in the same shop.
Ammunition was from one source.
Bad ammo? Faulty rifles? Combination of marginal ammo and shaky rifle? I never heard any followup.

 

[C J]

No idea how that ignorance started

As far as handguns go and the cup and saucer grip there's a real good reason it got started. It's the fastest way to teach someone to be accurate. It may not be a good idea but as long as I've been shooting this is the first time I saw it mentioned as a safety issue. The reasons I've seen for changing to a new grip are about control of the handgun. Many of us learned that cup and saucer style with a revolver where there was no danger of a mag exploding. I've never seen any reference to a safety problem with it though. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box though. I just would have noticed if it had been mentioned by anyone ever. I've surfed a lot of gun boards and read many articles on shooting stances and grips and I've only heard that it is a safety issue in this thread. So either I'm missing something or it isn't a common thing being taught. I know modern shooters favor different styles but again it was always sold as a more accurate way to shoot and not a safety issue at least as far as I've seen.

 

[mbliss57]

Welcome to the Forum. You may get an award for most dramatic 1st post and longest running thread from that post! I am glad you are not hurt.
As this is a forum you can see that everyone has an opinion. Some are more helpful than others. What none of us know is what really happened. Only you know the circumstances that occured and even you don't know the root cause the malfunction. You will/should get a new gun from S&W. Hopefully, you will get an explanation. I was also in the Army and have fired 1000's of rounds of 5.56 ammo from lots of different M16s and also AR 15s in civilian life. I have never seen this happen. It would scare me and make me angry if it happened to me as well. I hope you let us know the outcome from S&W and or Ammo manufacturer (Federal) if they give you a plausible explanation. If they don't, I hope you come back to the forum anyway, as this is a pretty good bunch of people to share info and experiences with. Again welcome.