Brand new BLEW UP IN MY FACE ON SHOT#16

[Ed Fowler]

It is not a safety issue with revolvers, I do like that you question this discussion.

I saw an overload blow the grips off of a S&W 39 back in the early 70's, all that it did was blow the mag out and the grips. A quick cleaning and the pistol was back on the firing line.

Today with the mother of plastic pistols and the folks at some of the customer service of some ammo manufactures it has become a problem where in the ammo makers can blame the firearms makers for problems.

 

[bamashooter]

As far as handguns go and the cup and saucer grip there's a real good reason it got started. It's the fastest way to teach someone to be accurate. It may not be a good idea but as long as I've been shooting this is the first time I saw it mentioned as a safety issue. The reasons I've seen for changing to a new grip are about control of the handgun. Many of us learned that cup and saucer style with a revolver where there was no danger of a mag exploding. I've never seen any reference to a safety problem with it though. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box though. I just would have noticed if it had been mentioned by anyone ever. I've surfed a lot of gun boards and read many articles on shooting stances and grips and I've only heard that it is a safety issue in this thread. So either I'm missing something or it isn't a common thing being taught. I know modern shooters favor different styles but again it was always sold as a more accurate way to shoot and not a safety issue at least as far as I've seen.

Very familiar with "cup and saucer" which has nothing to do with ARs. I have no idea how long you've been shooting and Don't really know much about this topic covered within the internet, but I was taught from 1968 forward with the M16, do not hold the weapon by the magazine or up against the magazine if you value your hand. I saw only a couple in the Army which required immediate medical attention. It can also cause a malfunction if you have a sloppy fit.

Primarily taught to folks for CQB-type stuff. They typically call it choking / choking up (your grip) not for accuracy but for maneuverability of the weapon. I've never known it to be an "accurizer" though I wouldn't doubt it's instructed that way.

Quite possibly I'm in the minority on how I don't hold my weapon but in my minority status I'll keep my hands in good health.

 

[MichiganScott]

Makes it so much more important to never use the magazine or mag well
as a handhold...as some schmucks have a tendancy to do "Hollywood-Style".

Also why folks have worked so hard to get the Cup & Saucer hold out of pistol
shooters, as the same thing happens when a semi-auto has an event...
if your hand is underneath the mag well, it's gonna BURN and likely also
get a nice dose of shrapnel.

Coming over from revolvers, it was a hard habit to break...but seeing one
poor bugger get burned helps one change a habit mighty quick

I've been shooting DA revolvers double action since the early 1970's and have never read or heard any professional recommend shooting a handgun with a cup and saucer hold. Such a hold does nothing to increase the isometric tension needed to shoot a handgun accurately.

The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.

 

[C J]

Very familiar with "cup and saucer" which has nothing to do with ARs.

I understand that. Someone mentioned that holding your hand under the mag of a pistol was the reason the cup and saucer grip was abandoned by shooters. My comment had nothing to do with AR's. I know not to hang onto an AR mag while firing. I have forward grips on both of my AR's so I have something to grip besides the mag or whatever. I had just never heard that it was a problem to hold a handgun underneath the mag. I was wondering if it was something that had caused a lot of problems or even a few problems I guess because I still shoot the way I learned to shoot in the early 60's. I use the cup and saucer grip. I always figured I had something going and I didn't want to change it but I'm rethinking that now.

The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.

When I learned to shoot everyone used that method. But I'm old and to be honest I shoot a handgun better than anyone I ever met personally. It's just something I do well. Lots of people do things well. I have been known to draw a large crowd watching me shoot. I also get called to do shooting demonstrations. Again I learned with a revolver so the safety problem with the cup and saucer didn't apply. But I can not only shoot well I can teach others to shoot well. The cup and saucer is a natural way to control a handgun. I don't mean to build myself up as something special. I'm not. I just know how to hit what I'm aiming at. I'm not a super shooter like Bob Munden was or anything but I can hold my own.

 

[bamashooter]

Oh, ok. Sorry about that.

 

[ChuckS1]

OH, 'out of battery discharge'. I thought I was reading about a medical condition.

AKA "shootus interruptus".

 

[Rastoff]

The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.

Interesting comment. When I was at combat arms training, the instructor told us to hold either the forearm or magazine well (not the magazine itself) whichever we felt more comfortable with.

I have seen lots of tacticool guys snicker at a new shooter because he was holding the mag well. I've also watched that same new shooter out shoot those who were trying to say he was doing it wrong.

Clearly these guys don't know what they're doing:

 

[MichiganScott]

Interesting comment. When I was at combat arms training, the instructor told us to hold either the forearm or magazine well (not the magazine itself) whichever we felt more comfortable with.

I have seen lots of tacticool guys snicker at a new shooter because he was holding the mag well. I've also watched that same new shooter out shoot those who were trying to say he was doing it wrong.

Clearly these guys don't know what they're doing:

Not tacticool, but I used the delta ring hold when I shot high power offhand, just like the two in the background are doing. The one in the foreground is using the magazine. Since I don't know him, I'll not comment on his newness, but the Gehmann glove he is wearing suggests that he knows enough to protect the rifle from the shooter.

 

[Big Shrek]

As far as handguns go and the cup and saucer grip there's a real good reason it got started. It's the fastest way to teach someone to be accurate. It may not be a good idea but as long as I've been shooting this is the first time I saw it mentioned as a safety issue. The reasons I've seen for changing to a new grip are about control of the handgun. Many of us learned that cup and saucer style with a revolver where there was no danger of a mag exploding. I've never seen any reference to a safety problem with it though. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box though. I just would have noticed if it had been mentioned by anyone ever. I've surfed a lot of gun boards and read many articles on shooting stances and grips and I've only heard that it is a safety issue in this thread. So either I'm missing something or it isn't a common thing being taught. I know modern shooters favor different styles but again it was always sold as a more accurate way to shoot and not a safety issue at least as far as I've seen.

Probably missed it...when I switched from a Revolver to a Semi-Auto back around
1990, the guys at the Gulf Breeze Pistol Parlor gave me the instruction with purchase.
When I went to hold it like a revolver with the old Cup & Saucer grip,
the guy corrected me and told me that if something went wrong, like a squib
followed by another shot, it'd blow the mag downwards and anything under
the mag would get fried & possibly shrapnelled...I took the hint

Over the years it's been shown more than once that the instruction was absolutely correct.
And it's an outdated hold at best at this point, much better revolver holds,
and FAR better semi-auto holds are now known.

 

[Big Shrek]

I've been shooting DA revolvers double action since the early 1970's and have never read or heard any professional recommend shooting a handgun with a cup and saucer hold. Such a hold does nothing to increase the isometric tension needed to shoot a handgun accurately.

The cup and saucer hold is a sure sign of a newbie, just like holding an AR by its magazine or mag well.

The old WW2 vet who taught me revolvers taught me that hold. Main reason?
Keeps yer mitt out of the way of the cylinder gap so you don't get burned.
Strangely enough, lotta rookie cops & whatnot used to get cooked on occasion,
and it was probably the quickest thing they could teach to make sure none of the other rookies
got burnt too.

There were MILLIONS of civilian & military shooters that got taught the Cup & Saucer hold.
As times progressed, it was discovered there were better holds that even a rookie
could get right

And a lot of us stuck with what we knew until we were taught better methods...

 

[C J]

And it's an outdated hold at best at this point, much better revolver holds,
and FAR better semi-auto holds are now known.

Thank goodness I've been lucky enough to avoid the problem over the years. I really am not able to shoot much now anyway and learning a new grip would require a lot of work I'm not likely to be able to do. But I won't be doing much shooting for pleasure. I'll take my chances in a self defense role but I already know how to shoot and when I do shoot I still hit what I aim at. Should say something about old dog and new tricks here but I definitely see the reason for avoiding putting your hand under a loaded mag. If I was 10 years younger I'd be switching for sure. I actually tried switching to new grips about 10 years ago because people claimed they were better for accuracy. They probably are but for me it was about unlearning 50 years of experience. I won't be teaching that method to anyone else. That's for sure. For me it was about going from being one of the best shots around to a guy learning something new and not doing so well at it. I did try several of the new grips and I just couldn't shoot the same. I would have changed had I knew about the safety issue though. It's stupid not to.

 

[agksimon]

Thank goodness I've been lucky enough to avoid the problem over the years. I really am not able to shoot much now anyway and learning a new grip would require a lot of work I'm not likely to be able to do. But I won't be doing much shooting for pleasure. I'll take my chances in a self defense role but I already know how to shoot and when I do shoot I still hit what I aim at. Should say something about old dog and new tricks here but I definitely see the reason for avoiding putting your hand under a loaded mag. If I was 10 years younger I'd be switching for sure. I actually tried switching to new grips about 10 years ago because people claimed they were better for accuracy. They probably are but for me it was about unlearning 50 years of experience. I won't be teaching that method to anyone else. That's for sure. For me it was about going from being one of the best shots around to a guy learning something new and not doing so well at it. I did try several of the new grips and I just couldn't shoot the same. I would have changed had I knew about the safety issue though. It's stupid not to.

I'm 72 and don't have any problem switching to better tactics, because I tell myself that I won't let this beat me. I shoot IDPA/USPSA and I'm constantly evolving to become better. You can do it, if you try.

 

[C J]

I'm constantly evolving to become better. You can do it, if you try.

I don't doubt I could do it if not for the fact that I basically can't walk at this point. I may recover some and if I'm better in the spring I will have a chance to do some shooting since I'm back at my real home now. But I haven't been able to stand for more than a few seconds since Christmas.

 

[MichiganScott]

Since this thread has been hijacked, when I got my M&P9 I first tried shooting the pistol like I shoot a DA revolver; off hand wrapped around the grip and both thumbs locked down behind the trigger on the frame at the top front of the grip. This hold always controlled the revolver well in double action. My shots went low left on target with the M&P.

I eventually ended up on the Internet watching Jerry Miculek videos. Jerry recommends wrapping the off hand around the grip with your index trigger on the front of the trigger guard with your thumb pointing forward on the frame with the thumb of your strong hand also on the frame pointing forward. Like magic, my groups became centered on target.

To CJ; after my last surgery I was restricted to the couch watching TV for six months. As TV, even cable, really sux during the day, I started dry firing my M&P with the grip Jerry recommended. By the time I got back to the range the new hold had become second nature. Although now I am legally handicapped and can't stand for any length of time, I shoot from a sitting position at my club. I consider myself an old dog that was trained to do new tricks.

 

[bamashooter]

Jerry's a great man.

 

[Ed Fowler]

PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums

For those of you who are getting older and your back will not support long periods of stand up shooting or have other physical problems, this was my solution to concentrating on my my shooting without being distracted from pain in my body. Worked like a charm, shot over 30,000 rounds from this chair.

You will notice that if an overcharge should happen the mag will just hit the chair. The grips will just sting your hand.

Next to a mechanical rest, this is the most stable position we can shoot from. The chair cost me $5.00 at an auction.

 

[rtquig]

It has been around 2 weeks. Has there been a resolution by the shop or Smith & Wesson?

 

[WR Moore]

It's been there maybe a week and it's probably neither the first priority nor something that's not going to involve detailed analysis.

 

[rtquig]

First post was on 1/11, two weeks ago. Just wondering what is up. I myself would have at least been on the phone to S&W the first business day after the incident. Nothing wrong with asking.

 

[BC38]

So is this a drive-by or what?

The OP posted 3 times over 2 days (the ONLY 3 posts he has ever made BTW) and then nothing for nearly two weeks and never any info on either progress OR resolution.

Meanwhile there have been over 100 other posts to the thread and it is still going...