^^^^^^^^^
Exactly! I thought drinking bong water was a violation of one of this site's myriad rules.
Polymer: my gradual acceptance
- Thread starter American1776
- Start date
Exactly! I thought drinking bong water was a violation of one of this site's myriad rules.
Vulcan Bob
Member
I look at my S&W,Colt and Ruger revolvers as works of art that you can shoot. I look at polymer framed hand guns as tools. For example, for my home defence hand guns mine are two S&W M&Ps one in 9mm and one in .45 ACP, both in full size. Attached to both are Streamlight TRL-1 weapon lites. Both function flawlessly, are adequately accurate. If ever used (I hope not!) for their intended purpose I will not cry crocodile tears as they go to the evidence locker.
Cold hard facts for pliable, stretchy, soft plast.. sorry polymers.
Yes, polymer framed pistols are lighter, easier to carry. But also much harder to shoot than steel framed equivalents. Who says so? All the inexperienced first time shooters that come to the range, and after they try the g19/17 and the 5906, the targets tell the tale. By far bigger difference between g21 and 4506 or 1911s. And these people's opinion matters twice as much, because they all come hyped to shoot the Holywood's favorite, and hadn't it been for the metal guns, they would go away disappointed. Heavier handguns tame recoil. Period.
Polymer strength. Yes, we can all attest to how far polymers have improved over the past 2-3 decades. However, I am still waiting for successful polymer barrels/chambers, polymer revolver cylinders, polymer springs (flat and coil), and of course polymer slides, with all these benefits that polymer has.(The 1958 Winchester shotgun barrel does not count. It had a metallic liner). And my all time favorite devastating anti polymer example, none would benefit more from weight reduction than the navy or the artillery. So, where are those plastic naval guns or howitzers? Thank you!
Also, is there a chance polymer frames may get wasted to household chemicals like gasoline and/or brake fluid?? I don't know. Steel, aluminum, wood will not, and we all know that.
Longevity. The "Iceman" was discovered in the Alps, at the place he fell 3000 years ago. His wooden bows and leather bags and quiver where found next to him. Actually, the documentary said that the scientists managed to recondition the leather pouches and to open them to find their contents!!! On the other hand, on my field boots the first thing that says goodbye, has never been the leather upper, but the rubber sole. And not just in mine. (I am not talking natural tread wear, rather the mid sole usually cracking and falling apart.) Also, in the various cars I have ever owned, the first parts to break, go loose, crack, stretch, fall, discolor, have always been (you guessed it) the nonmetallic ones.
Cheaper to produce. Hell yes!! I recall from back in the nineties, when S&W's treacherous redcoat management decided to copy Glock and produce the Sigma. The litigation ended with S&W paying royalties to Glock, 17 dollars American for each Sigma they sold. This was supposedly the cost for a Glock, (or a Sigma apparently). Therefore, when a metallic framed pistol, a wonder of machining, can be had for 500 dollars, a mold injected polymer framed pistol should be selling for a 150 dollars. Not one dollar more.
Conclusion. Polymer has two advantages only. Low cost, and low weight. Since this cost reduction is not reflected in the price, thanx, but no thanx. And truth be told, had it not been for cost, and cost alone, plastic would never fly. The only reason trash bags are plastic is just that. Cost. To those that claim plastic framed pistols are lighter, therefore easier to carry, absolutely correct. However, personally, I would rather carry a better pistol, (or if you wish a pistol I liked better) and suffer the more weight (and of course that is what I do) especially if I was armed for a living!!!. The ugly truth is though, most people i hear complain about the extra weight are people like me, who are already overweight them selves, yet they complain about the extra 10 ounces. And in my book that is a not valid point. Just my two cents friends!
Yes, polymer framed pistols are lighter, easier to carry. But also much harder to shoot than steel framed equivalents. Who says so? All the inexperienced first time shooters that come to the range, and after they try the g19/17 and the 5906, the targets tell the tale. By far bigger difference between g21 and 4506 or 1911s. And these people's opinion matters twice as much, because they all come hyped to shoot the Holywood's favorite, and hadn't it been for the metal guns, they would go away disappointed. Heavier handguns tame recoil. Period.
Polymer strength. Yes, we can all attest to how far polymers have improved over the past 2-3 decades. However, I am still waiting for successful polymer barrels/chambers, polymer revolver cylinders, polymer springs (flat and coil), and of course polymer slides, with all these benefits that polymer has.(The 1958 Winchester shotgun barrel does not count. It had a metallic liner). And my all time favorite devastating anti polymer example, none would benefit more from weight reduction than the navy or the artillery. So, where are those plastic naval guns or howitzers? Thank you!
Also, is there a chance polymer frames may get wasted to household chemicals like gasoline and/or brake fluid?? I don't know. Steel, aluminum, wood will not, and we all know that.
Longevity. The "Iceman" was discovered in the Alps, at the place he fell 3000 years ago. His wooden bows and leather bags and quiver where found next to him. Actually, the documentary said that the scientists managed to recondition the leather pouches and to open them to find their contents!!! On the other hand, on my field boots the first thing that says goodbye, has never been the leather upper, but the rubber sole. And not just in mine. (I am not talking natural tread wear, rather the mid sole usually cracking and falling apart.) Also, in the various cars I have ever owned, the first parts to break, go loose, crack, stretch, fall, discolor, have always been (you guessed it) the nonmetallic ones.
Cheaper to produce. Hell yes!! I recall from back in the nineties, when S&W's treacherous redcoat management decided to copy Glock and produce the Sigma. The litigation ended with S&W paying royalties to Glock, 17 dollars American for each Sigma they sold. This was supposedly the cost for a Glock, (or a Sigma apparently). Therefore, when a metallic framed pistol, a wonder of machining, can be had for 500 dollars, a mold injected polymer framed pistol should be selling for a 150 dollars. Not one dollar more.
Conclusion. Polymer has two advantages only. Low cost, and low weight. Since this cost reduction is not reflected in the price, thanx, but no thanx. And truth be told, had it not been for cost, and cost alone, plastic would never fly. The only reason trash bags are plastic is just that. Cost. To those that claim plastic framed pistols are lighter, therefore easier to carry, absolutely correct. However, personally, I would rather carry a better pistol, (or if you wish a pistol I liked better) and suffer the more weight (and of course that is what I do) especially if I was armed for a living!!!. The ugly truth is though, most people i hear complain about the extra weight are people like me, who are already overweight them selves, yet they complain about the extra 10 ounces. And in my book that is a not valid point. Just my two cents friends!
Except those "works of art" were and are common production guns. Yeah they harken back to a different era of gun making and as a machinist I can appreciate what it took to make them.
But the market for gun makers is plastic so it stands to reason the R&D money and QC will chase the profits
a production gun is just a production gun whether it's plastic or blued steel lets not elevate or denigrate solely on materials.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
When I was logging I had a bad accident. On the last tree of the day I was very tired and in a rush. The tree was big and had no lean. She bound up my new $1,000 100cc saw, spun around and smashed it into the ground.
My point the nasa space age plastic didn't break but the magnesium took the brunt force trauma. So going plastic might not be a bad idea.
My point the nasa space age plastic didn't break but the magnesium took the brunt force trauma. So going plastic might not be a bad idea.
Just thinking about polymer guns I have owned.
Kel Tec .32 ...great gun
Kel Tec .380 ...great gun in better caliber
Kel Tec Pf-9...great gun but kicked like a mule
Ruger LCP .380...great gun bad sights
Taurus TCP .380...great gun, better than the Ruger
Ruger LCP II .380 ...great gun, good trigger and sights, best pocket gun
Kahr CM9 ...great gun nice, smooth DA trigger
Ruger .22/45 .22 ...great gun, nice trigger, accurate
S&W M&P .40...great gun, just would have preferred a thumb safety
S&W M&P 9m/m Shield...great gun possibly the perfect CC weapon
Nothing significantly wrong with any of those guns I just like wood and steel better. Most of my guns now are older guns and my few, new guns are copies of old designs, like my Rock Island 1911 .45acp and my Bersa .22(copy of Walther PPK). Thats just how my taste runs.
Kel Tec .32 ...great gun
Kel Tec .380 ...great gun in better caliber
Kel Tec Pf-9...great gun but kicked like a mule
Ruger LCP .380...great gun bad sights
Taurus TCP .380...great gun, better than the Ruger
Ruger LCP II .380 ...great gun, good trigger and sights, best pocket gun
Kahr CM9 ...great gun nice, smooth DA trigger
Ruger .22/45 .22 ...great gun, nice trigger, accurate
S&W M&P .40...great gun, just would have preferred a thumb safety
S&W M&P 9m/m Shield...great gun possibly the perfect CC weapon
Nothing significantly wrong with any of those guns I just like wood and steel better. Most of my guns now are older guns and my few, new guns are copies of old designs, like my Rock Island 1911 .45acp and my Bersa .22(copy of Walther PPK). Thats just how my taste runs.
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The point of impact might had a lot to do with it, in this specific case. without doubt however, my and other friends' equally expensive Husqvarna chainsaws have suffered warped and discolored and eventually cracked plastic covers from regular use. Two others that keep running a Promac 850 and a Stihl 070 from back in the 70's, all they miss is the original color scheme. And again, like I mentioned earlier, if the plastic saws were properly discounted since they are much cheaper to make, fine. but charging as much as if they were handcrafted, well this is not good. Unfortunately, in this respect, companies do get away with murder though. In the case of chainsaws, the guy with the Promac, will only be having it for as long as he may find parts. then, he must switch to something else. The guy with the Stihl, has a bit of better luck. They are still manufactured in Brasil I think. They both inherited their saws from their fathers. There will not be much left of my Huskies to work with 5 years from now. Never mind passing them on...
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
Twenty years ago I owned two Glocks, a 19 and a 22, both second generation, that I was well satisfied with, especially the 19. Both were dead solid reliable, and I got used to the weird feel of the triggers. Also briefly owned a Ket-Tec P32, which fit my hand so badly I couldn't hit with it, but it was reliable.
Sold them all, in the process of going back to revolvers only, though I had not the slightest doubt about the long-term durability of the Glocks or the polymer frame of the P32. I wouldn't mind having another G19 as a house gun.
My preference remains all-steel revolvers. They are what I learned on, and their long history appeals to me. I carry one daily and have for twenty years. But though the Glocks were strictly utilitarian and not very gratifying to look at, I'll bet a lot of them will be around and serviceable fifty years after I'm dead.
Sold them all, in the process of going back to revolvers only, though I had not the slightest doubt about the long-term durability of the Glocks or the polymer frame of the P32. I wouldn't mind having another G19 as a house gun.
My preference remains all-steel revolvers. They are what I learned on, and their long history appeals to me. I carry one daily and have for twenty years. But though the Glocks were strictly utilitarian and not very gratifying to look at, I'll bet a lot of them will be around and serviceable fifty years after I'm dead.
You must have forgot about the Sigma SW380M & SW9M.
Collo Rosso
Member
Entertaining read! One's perception seems to be the factor how they view polymer firearms.
Going on 40+ years as a technician in various fields I've had a life time of new materials, processes and constant change. I remember when Glocks came to the U.S. my perception was "about time...". I've owned and own many polymer guns, recently buying a LCP II.
Last year buying a semi-auto shotgun for sporting clays I fell in love with the Benelli super sport. Fit me just right and pointed great. But my perception of the fake carbon fiber stock and forend was "your kid'n, right?" I bought a montefelto sporting with proper walnut furniture.
Going on 40+ years as a technician in various fields I've had a life time of new materials, processes and constant change. I remember when Glocks came to the U.S. my perception was "about time...". I've owned and own many polymer guns, recently buying a LCP II.
Last year buying a semi-auto shotgun for sporting clays I fell in love with the Benelli super sport. Fit me just right and pointed great. But my perception of the fake carbon fiber stock and forend was "your kid'n, right?" I bought a montefelto sporting with proper walnut furniture.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
It took me till '94 to purchase a rem 700 with a nylon stock. I'm a real wood guy when it comes to guns and a die hard steel guy.
LVSteve
Member
The big plus for polymer is that it allows the development of many different gun designs at moderate cost. There will be some now screaming at the display "You cannot improve on the perfection of the _______ (insert favorite steel pistol here". To them I say that polymer allows experimentation, and that adds interest to the hobby for me.
Yes, I'm the guy that buys what many here will call "off brand" guns, or guns that operate in novel ways, often condemned as "solution looking for a problem". Well, the curmudgeons may carry on muttering, it won't change my interest in new designs, many of which could not happen without polymer.
Yes, I'm the guy that buys what many here will call "off brand" guns, or guns that operate in novel ways, often condemned as "solution looking for a problem". Well, the curmudgeons may carry on muttering, it won't change my interest in new designs, many of which could not happen without polymer.
The downside to that, of course, is increasing planned obsolescence by the plastic gunmakers. It used to be that you bought a gun to last a lifetime. Now, it seems they (the plastic ones) are obsolete before you even get them home.
Then the value collapses because nobody wants the old style. You swallow hard, sell or trade yours in for chicken feed and buy the new style... rinse and repeat. Pretty sad situation which has driven me back into traditional all-metal guns or nothing. 
The downside to that, of course, is increasing planned obsolescence by the plastic gunmakers. It used to be that you bought a gun to last a lifetime. Now, it seems they (the plastic ones) are obsolete before you even get them home.
So I guess you are not workin on a Sigma collection TTSH!!! LOL
My Gen 2 Glock is still shooting just fine.
However, my steel S&W 3rd Generations no longer have parts made any longer.
Many steel and aluminum fame guns like the Star's (the nice BM 9mm model) the BKM the aluminum model and other guns although metal NO longer have factory part support.
Just because a gun is metal does not mean it will have small parts available, or springs or magazines.
Sig just discontinued the P239 and now people are lamenting they stopped making Magazines.
Metal guns unless they are open standards like 1911's AR Pattern rifles or maybe 3rd generation glocks with after market support won't have enough production quantity in most cases to maintain reliable parts and spring availability.
I already have metal guns that over my 35 years of shooting have moved from the reliable to less reliable or unreliable column and have had 4 guns break. 2 with no parts available except used.
On the other hand my Glock Gen 2 is still working and still can be repaired.
However, my steel S&W 3rd Generations no longer have parts made any longer.
Many steel and aluminum fame guns like the Star's (the nice BM 9mm model) the BKM the aluminum model and other guns although metal NO longer have factory part support.
Just because a gun is metal does not mean it will have small parts available, or springs or magazines.
Sig just discontinued the P239 and now people are lamenting they stopped making Magazines.
Metal guns unless they are open standards like 1911's AR Pattern rifles or maybe 3rd generation glocks with after market support won't have enough production quantity in most cases to maintain reliable parts and spring availability.
I already have metal guns that over my 35 years of shooting have moved from the reliable to less reliable or unreliable column and have had 4 guns break. 2 with no parts available except used.
On the other hand my Glock Gen 2 is still working and still can be repaired.
I suspect some Polymers can cost MORE than steel.
Polymer guns have high initial costs of making the tooling as do MIM but low cost afterwards.
You are making the mistake thinking a polymer gun costs less in the short run in the long run tech makes prices come down.
Remember to buy an ultra thin laptop costs more than a well made desktop computer which contains a lot more 'metal'.
bananaman
Member
Last March, I traded off my last poly wonder on a 686-6 5" Pro Series. I am very happy with it. There are just too many guns out there that NOT poly that I would like to own. Yes, I am on the "old side". Bob
Hmmm. Not sure if serious.
HOUSTON RICK
Member
I bought an original M&P 9 and it is a good enough firearm, I prefer the third gens, but that is me. I imagine with comparable care the polymer guns will do just fine.
Qc Pistolero
Member
I'm an old school guy.But I must admit that polymers have come a long way as far as toughness is concerned.Endurance,only the future will tell and at my age,the future is seen with a short to medium spectrum.
But even though I was to admit that polymer guns are as tough as steel guns(which I'm not about to do yet),I say that the part I object the most is that when I pick one up,I can't get over the feeling that I'm going to drop the darn thing to the ceiling!
The thing is so light it won't stabilize.And don't give me the reasoning that when a law agent carries one all day long the lightest the best;guns are to be shot accurately!And to me,weight and balance is a necessity.If you tell me that you can shoot these lightweights accurately,good for you...I can't.
But even though I was to admit that polymer guns are as tough as steel guns(which I'm not about to do yet),I say that the part I object the most is that when I pick one up,I can't get over the feeling that I'm going to drop the darn thing to the ceiling!
The thing is so light it won't stabilize.And don't give me the reasoning that when a law agent carries one all day long the lightest the best;guns are to be shot accurately!And to me,weight and balance is a necessity.If you tell me that you can shoot these lightweights accurately,good for you...I can't.
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