Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads.....

[ABPOS]

This is going to sound all over the place. But maybe you guys can help make sense of it.....

I was in line at the Pharmacy and there was a guy there that was just huge. But not in a only fat kind of way. Not a body builder either. But in a, used to be bad to the bone but getting older kind of way. He was may be 35-40 and just looked like had a hard life. And even a bit sketchy so my defense meter was up. He was probably harmless and such but I've been burned before in the past just assuming the best in everyone around me. So I've become more wary. Anyways.... Not that I was profiling or anything. I was just being cautious. But what struck me was his size. His upper torso was just really big. I'm guessing if he lifted up his arms, side to side would been more than 24" and with his shoulders / arms down, a heck of a lot more. All of a sudden it just got me thinking about penetration.

Furthermore, it struck me that all the "viable" tests are done with gel and sometimes denim but if you're shooting at a torso, the likelihood of you hitting bone right off the bat is very good. And head shots too obviously.

And then to add insult to injury, it's starting to look a lot like... Well this year has been a weird year but suffice to say, winter is coming. And up here, it gets real cold a lot. So people wear thick jackets.

And I'm just like... a little overwhelmed by in a real life scenario in winter, if my .38's out of a snubby would actually work.

I think the answer is yes. And it's not the first time I've had this perspective but honestly, I want a round that is going to penetrate. WELL. A lot more well than everybodie's insistence on 12-18" sweet spot. Heck, I'd rather it lean towards 24". Cuz if it hits a bone, it's going to slow it down and it's not going to penetrate as deeply as it does in the tests of just gel. At least that's what I think.

But then the caveat is, I don't shoot +p's well in my 442. Some day I'd like a steel J frame, but money is tight. And beyond that, most of the +p's are rounds that will open up and will just slow down penetration anyways..... If I was going to shoot +p, I'd almost rather have a FMJ +p.

But what I've come to the conclusion is that I think I'm just going to start carrying vanilla ole FMJ. All the time. And maybe try to find some of the hotter FMJ rounds. I'm not really sure what that would be, because usually the FMJ stuff is loaded for practice and range. So they're not usually all that hot. The PMC and Winchster I've shot seem to fall into a pretty mild felt recoiling round. On the other hand, if they penetrate a lot better than any of the HP rounds, than it's kind of a win win.

So, if any of you guys have chronographed FMJ rounds with the same intent, to see what might be the hotter of them, I'm all ears. I'm also open to hearing your opinions. I know I can be kind of neurotic about this stuff and my thinking is sometimes off. And I understand WHY rounds are designed to not penetrate too far. I realize one that goes through a person could harm someone else. And I get that. But I feel like an FMJ round isn't likely to go through two sets of ribs and still be sailing out. In fact, I just watched a Paul Herrel video where he uses a set up to simulate a torso with ribs and oranges and pigs ears for skin. Etc. And none of the standard pressure rounds went through the T shirt on the back side. Although he did not test FMJ's. Just Hornady 125 XTP, 110 Critical Defense and one other load......

Now, the converse to all of this is I'm thinking about setting my wife up with my Detective Special and low recoiling rounds. Because I feel like it's better than a .22..... LOL. And even with wadcutters she didn't like the recoil.... Although she must just be better off with a .22.

 

[Rammer Jammer]

Finding the "perfect" carry round can be an endless search because there are so many factors to take into consideration.

Your reasoning with the large man you encountered is sound in his case. But remember that huge man is an outlier in the realm of the average everyday person.

 

[BAM-BAM]

There was a time when I carried a .380 when in a suit.......evenings and weekends...... 9mm 8 months a year and .45 from sometime in Dec to sometime in March.

In the past few years it's been basically 9mm ...... in cold, heavy clothing weather...... I go from a 7+1 3913 (spare 8rd mag.) to a 12+1 6906 (spare mag is a 15rd w/ a +2 grip adapter)

 

[zzclancy]

All I hear is over penetration. I worry about not enough penetration. Drugs and fat people. Seriously, how many videos do you see with bad guys soaking up bullets. People on drugs and the teaser doesn't stop them. 6-8 cops trying to put someone into custody.

Miami shootout. Lack of penetration.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Since you opened this up for opinions, here's three...

1) In the winter, the JHP's likely will plug with clothing, won't expand, and penetrate further, not less.

2) My understanding is the FBI 12" to 18" penetration in gel isn't a an exact one to one equivalent to a human. It's a repeatable test to compare the performance of different rounds using a medium (from pigs) with a similar density kind of/sort of like human tissue. Rounds known to be effective against real people were tested. The penetration was 12" to 18" in the gel and expansion was to something like .6". From that they said said if a round penetrated 12" to 18" and expanded to .6" it likely would be effective also.

3) IIRC, there was a retired LEO (from Michigan I think) that used to post here that had an issue with .38 Special JHP penetration. He switched to .38 FMJ.

Just my opinions. YMMV.

 

[Marshal Tom]

how often will you run into that large Fat Person? You should consider the most prominent scenario that you are likely to encounter and go with that. We can all what if it to death on what might happen with our chosen EDC but is that practical for most of us for EDC

 

[colt_saa]

Since they were first introcuded late in the last century, there is almost always a 357 Magnum J-frame with me and it is always stuffed with Hornady's 140JHPs . . . but I live in Florida.

We do not have a winter clothing issue down here

Image courtesy of SurfingSantas.Org​

In a northern city like say Chicago, I would go to 158 JSPs in the winter time.

Much better penetration than the 125-140 JHPs but a little more expansion than the FMJs

All of that being said, the odds of a civilian getting into a firefight is probably a longer shot than winning the PowerBall while being struck by lightning and we are all just overthinking our scenarios

No matter what you finally end up carrying remember to practice, Practice, PRACTICE

 

[fredj338]

IF your jhp of choice fails to open it is a likely more efficient fmj (flattened tip). Your fmj will NEVER expand or deform, so regardless of service caliber, I always carry a good JHP, 380 being the exception but I wont carry a 380. You will rarely get to pick your fight so I like planning for the worst case scenario in my attacker; the big, really intent on hurting me type, weapon or not. The one I know I can not fight off with my hands.

 

[ABPOS]

Finding the "perfect" carry round can be an endless search because there are so many factors to take into consideration.

Your reasoning with the large man you encountered is sound in his case. But remember that huge man is an outlier in the realm of the average everyday person.

I realize not everyone is built like him. But once you start adding heavy clothing, bones and such, I think penetration could be lacking with some of the JHP's rounds.

 

[ABPOS]

All I hear is over penetration. I worry about not enough penetration. Drugs and fat people. Seriously, how many videos do you see with bad guys soaking up bullets. People on drugs and the teaser doesn't stop them. 6-8 cops trying to put someone into custody.

Miami shootout. Lack of penetration.

Yeah, exactly.

There were many times I stoked my 9mm's with FMJ for the same reason. In the past.

I think I'm going to just use FMJ's for now. That being said, the XTP's don't have a reputation for opening much anyways. So I'm probably fine with those too.

Plus at present my carry out is 5 125 XTP's in the gun, 5 FMJ's on a speed strip and 5 Golden Sabers. I figure I covered the gamut. But I may just start using all FMJ's. LOL. Or at least have them as the first 5.

 

[Imissedagain]

Close up with a large person might require learning skills to take out their knees with your long legs.
Timber!!!

 

[ContinentalOp]

Overpenetration is a real risk when using FMJ for self defense. NYPD switched to JHP after having several instances of FMJ passing through people and injuring bystanders and other officers. I can think of 2 instances just off the top of my head where .45ACP FMJ went through the intended target's body and injured the person behind.

Also, as was already mentioned, people keep misinterpreting the 12-18" gel penetration guideline. The FBI came up with that guideline because, based on their research and those of others, such as Dr. Martin Fackler, a round that penetrates that depth in gel will penetrate deep enough in people, even with bone and other tissue types, to damage vital organs/systems.

Another point: generally speaking, handgun FMJs don't cause much damage. They typically leave narrow wound channels. It stretches tissue before punching through, then afterwards the tissue springs back, almost sealing the wound back up. A JHP, even one that doesn't expand, is going to cause more tissue disruption due to a "cookie cutter" effect. Where a FMJ may glance off a bone if it doesn't get a direct, straight-on shot, a JHP is going to be more likely to "bite" and damage the bone.

Regarding heavy clothing: Police agencies in the northern US have been using modern JHP against heavily-clothed attackers with good success. St. Paul, Minnesota PD uses the 147gr HST. Chicago PD and NYPD have both used the .38 Special SB-GDHP.

If you want to carry FMJ, that's your business. I personally see no reason to, unless your restricted by law (I'm thinking of NJ). The risks far outweigh any perceived benefits.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Yeah, exactly.

There were many times I stoked my 9mm's with FMJ for the same reason. In the past.

I think I'm going to just use FMJ's for now. That being said, the XTP's don't have a reputation for opening much anyways. So I'm probably fine with those too.

Plus at present my carry out is 5 125 XTP's in the gun, 5 FMJ's on a speed strip and 5 Golden Sabers. I figure I covered the gamut. But I may just start using all FMJ's. LOL. Or at least have them as the first 5.

Disclaimer - I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but I have thought about these same things for my J-Frame.

Instead of FMJ's, have you considered 148gr wadcutters for your first 5? Something like Federal or Fiocchi match grade rounds. Low recoil. Plenty of penetration from gel tests I've seen (the internet never lies, right). Flat front face. Then use something more "pointy" like FMJ or JHP for easier reloading.

 

[ShivasIrons]

Just roll with a 158gr Lead SWC. That will do exactly what you are looking for and it is better than LRN.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

The only shot that truly counts in a gun fight is the last shot fired, usually the shot that causes sufficient tissue damage and blood loss to induce unconsciousness, or disrupting the central nervous system sufficiently to render your opponent incapable of continuing the fight.

Over-penetration can be a concern in heavily populated areas and urban environments, and that concern cannot be discounted in any way. However, the overriding concern in a gun fight is stopping the threat, and if that means creating both an entry wound and an exit wound, then so be it (two pathways for bleeding are more efficient in inducing unconsciousness than only one).

You are carrying a 1-7/8" barreled J-frame revolver. Nothing you load into it is likely to generate sufficient velocity or energy to create any significant expansion within any medium at normal self-defense ranges. Far more likely is the use of too light a bullet, or too fragile a bullet, to adequately penetrate and cause the sort of damage that ends the fight.

The world is not a perfect place. There is no such thing as the perfect handgun. There is no such thing as the perfect ammunition for every situation. When you are confronted with a life or death decision I suggest that you select YOUR LIFE first, and let the rest of the situation work itself out as it will. That is the essence of self-defense, i.e.: I am in fear for my life and I am forced to use deadly force in defense of my life.

Nothing I have written here should be taken as a criticism of those who genuinely care about other innocents within range of their weapon. All I am saying is that a self-defense situation is an extreme set of circumstances, otherwise the use of deadly force is not appropriate. Take care of the threat first, put the threat down, then worry about the extraneous parts of the situation. The first rule of self-defense is survival; everything else comes later.

It is easy to clutter your mind with extraneous detail, and that can lead to failure to survive. This may sound cold-hearted, and perhaps it is, but the only people who will ever have to worry about these things are the SURVIVORS.

Now I will sit back and let everyone pick me apart with endless details about ballistics testing and lawyers ready to pounce on anyone who dares to consider their own survival as a real high priority.

 

[rwt1405]

Miami shootout. Lack of penetration.

I am not, nor claim to be, an expert on this, but I do like to think of myself as a "student" of this event, among others.

I think you really need to go back and research the events, etc., surrounding the "Miami shootout".

I think you will find the failure was NOT of ammunition, but of tactics.

At least that is how I see it.

As to the OP, you certainly can carry what you please, but I would NOT be carrying FMJ, in anything other then a .380 (or smaller), for a concealed carry handgun.

Just my honest opinion.

 

[WR Moore]

If you're worried sufficient penetration, as some have noted above, the Horanaday XTP seems to provide penetration on the higher end of the spectrum. The Critical Duty round is designed to provide similar performance even after passing through heavy clothing. I'd think they'd be better choices than FMJ. At least you'd have made a good faith effort to prevent over penetration.

Having noted that, I have to return to my own mantra that shot placement is more important than bullet diameter, velocity and design. Adequate penetration is assumed.

I recall testing the old Nyclad "Chiefs Special" round. I don't recall penetration but expansion was to about .42". You could regard that as pathetic or pretty darn good for a standard pressure .38 out of a 1 7/8" barrel. However, that was in a test medium which bears minimal resemblance to a human torso.

 

[SMSgt]

This is what happens when one thinks too much.

Defend your life. Shoot if you have to. Shoot again if needed. Keep shooting as required. Everything else is secondary to you surviving.

 

[ABPOS]

Disclaimer - I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but I have thought about these same things for my J-Frame.

Instead of FMJ's, have you considered 148gr wadcutters for your first 5? Something like Federal or Fiocchi match grade rounds. Low recoil. Plenty of penetration from gel tests I've seen (the internet never lies, right). Flat front face. Then use something more "pointy" like FMJ or JHP for easier reloading.

I'm trying to stay away from Lead. I just don't to clean it out of the barrels. But yes, I'm not opposed to them. They may wound a bit better than FMJ. I'm not sure HOW much better though. Plus there's no way I'm attempting a reload with them. But I guess they wouldn't be a bad choice for the first 5. If I didn't mind cleaning the lead out.

 

[fredj338]

I realize not everyone is built like him. But once you start adding heavy clothing, bones and such, I think penetration could be lacking with some of the JHP's rounds.

Unless your attacker is wearing Kevlar, his clothing wont limit penetration but may clog the JHP, possibly increasing penetration.