Cannelure brass in .38 special.

[nitro-express]

To all...and Dirty Gary:

It has been years since I have reloaded and never before have I experienced this.....even way back when. This is the first time however, that I have used these types of cases. I always used straight-walled brass in the past and I never had a problem, but the case walls did cant and crush at the cannelure. I just wondered if other reloaders here have had the same issue? These cases were factory Winchester 148 wadcutter ammunition that I had a few boxes of and shot (and saved). I will shy away from them now (even if I see some at the range) and I will review my reloading procedures more carefully.

Another side note....I found the RCBS universal hand priming too to not work as advertised....let's put it at that.

Some may think I am a bad reloader.....perhaps due to my being away for so long I have missed a beat or two, but overall, I have not lost everything I learned...yet.

Thank you all again!

TAKJR

Like any tool, there are user preferences. I have some top quality handloading tools that I don't like, because they don't feel right or I like the way some other tool works. In addition, if you load enough for long enough, you will experience the odd problem.

Years ago, more like decades ago, I bought about 600 38 Special nickel plated brass from a gunshop that also did some commercial reloading. They were setting aside all the brass with a cannelure. At the time I did not understand the why, so I bought them.

Fast forward till the present. I now shoot more pistol, Cowboy Action, and I am using up the brass.

My bullets do not have a cannelure, I crimp into the bullet, lead alloy with a BHN of 16 > 17, not soft. I crimp with a LEE factory crimp die, in a separate operation. In this application, seating and crimping in one operation will not work. The bullet would still be seating on the upstroke while the rim of the case would be wedged solidly into the bullet. I use this ammunition in a '66 Uberti, and don't want any feeding issues.

As far as dies, I prefer the LEE crimp die, it is relatively inexpensive and it works for me. It is not designed to seat and crimp in the same operation, it cannot seat bullets. Any seating die that is capable of crimping is a compromise. On a bullet it will seat and crimp, and if the bullet has a cannelure it can be set to work. To set a RCBS seat/crimp die I first seat the bullet to the desired OAL. I then back out the seating plug and set the die so it will apply just the correct amount of crimp. I lock the die in place. With the cartridge in the die, full stroke on the press, I then set the seating plug to just touch the bullet. I remove the cartridge and try seating/crimping a new bullet in a primed and powdered case. Some fine tuning may be in order. I usually seat and crimp in separate operations.

The cannelure in the case will iron out, almost completely, after a few reloadings. When you size the brass the outside of the case will be smooth, and just a small bump/ridge will be present on the inside. When you seat the bullet, that ridge will be on the case exterior. It is between a thou or 2.

I took a discarded case, small vertical crack in the cannelure area, and crushed it in my arbor press, to see where the weak area was. To see if the cannelure was a stress point.

Visually, I conclude that the cannelure in the case is a stress point, but not as much of one as I thought. Of course 1 test is not scientific testing, but it does show the weaker points of the case. Notice the bending at the crack that was in the case, the reason it was a discard.

It's my opinion that cases with a cannelure can be successfully reloaded, however, if I had a choice, I'd choose the smooth sided case every time. This is especially true if the bullet will be seated past the cannelure.

As you can see, not all case cannelures are created equal, they vary in position and some a more prominent than others.

 

[DWalt]

I'm always surprised when I read this.Been reloading for 30 years and seat/crimp in one step with no problem.It aint that hard to set that die up properly.

I can say pretty much the same thing. Never had any problems with cannelured cases using any bullet. I never crimp WC bullets.

 

[rockquarry]

Never heard of this happening and I've never seen any difference in cannelured vs. non-cannelured brass for handloading cast or jacketed bullets.

As for seating and crimping bullets in two steps, that's fine and works well. In many situations, so does crimping and seating in one step. There are variables involved in just about every step of handloading. Before criticizing, one might do a 25 yard benchrest accuracy comparison of cartridges loaded each way.

As for crimp, regardless of type, there is no standard for light, medium , and heavy; it's pretty much an eyeball estimation. I've found the lightest crimp, regardless of type, that will prevent bullet movement is the best crimp, at least for me. I think many handloaders crimp far more than necessary, BUT, if it works for them, it's a good crimp.

 

[Culina]

So are they buckling when you seat the bullet or when you crimp it? two different problems, you need to isolate which operation is causing your issue before you can figure out a solution.

 

[muddocktor]

Guys, this is a 6 year old thread that nitro-express bumped back up to the front page of the forum. The OP is listed as "Banned", so I doubt that he comes to these forums any more.

nitro-express, nice pics of your bullets and the crushed cases, but this thread was long dead before you found it.

 

[Culina]

darn it, I didn't even notice someone resurrected a necro thread, who does that?

 

[Trooperdan]

I will just mention that the double-cannelure WC brass is prized by guys that are loading the 148 gr WC bullet!

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Double crimped wadcutter brass

Wadcutter brass can be distinguished from regular brass by the double crimp, as seen in the nitro-express photo, on the right.

Wadcutter brass has a longer straight untapered inner case wall than the standard case. This allows the deep seated wadcutter bullet to not hit the thicker wall of the case toward the case head. This can cause the loaded case to bulge and the bullet to be damaged. This also gives an even case tension on the entire length of the bullets.

Don't use wadcutter brass for higher pressure loads.

Did a quick check comparing the 38 Spcl wadcutter double cannelure brass walls to a 38 Spcl (+P)'s brass walls:

Using a .350" plug gage (the biggest that would pass by the inside ridges caused by the double cannelures), it would extend ~.725" into the wadcutter double cannelure case but only ~.460" into the (+P) case, a difference of ~.260".

That shows that the wadcutter has straighter walls & the (+P)'s thicker more tapered lower walls.

The wadcutter's walls only start getting thick just below it's lower cannelure while the (+P)'s starts getting thicker higher, where the upper cannelure would be on it, if it had one.

.

 

[s2harry]

Diameter

So the problem is
1. that Lead bullets are larger in diameter than Jacketed Bullets. .358 or .359
2. Sizing Dies are made to size brass UNDER the bullet diameter.
3. The Expander Plug is sized to open the case to hold .357 diameter
Jacketed Bullets firmly.
4. You need a Lead Bullet Expander plug (say .359 diameter not sure exact)
to load lead bullets properly and avoid excessive friction pressure on the
case. (reloading store)

your welcome

 

[nitro-express]

Wadcutter brass can be distinguished from regular brass by the double crimp, as seen in the nitro-express photo, on the right.

Wadcutter brass has a longer straight untapered inner case wall than the standard case. This allows the deep seated wadcutter bullet to not hit the thicker wall of the case toward the case head. This can cause the loaded case to bulge and the bullet to be damaged. This also gives an even case tension on the entire length of the bullets.

Don't use wadcutter brass for higher pressure loads.

Did a quick check comparing the 38 Spcl wadcutter double cannelure brass walls to a 38 Spcl (+P)'s brass walls:

Using a .350" plug gage (the biggest that would pass by the inside ridges caused by the double cannelures), it would extend ~.725" into the wadcutter double cannelure case but only ~.460" into the (+P) case, a difference of ~.260".

That shows that the wadcutter has straighter walls & the (+P)'s thicker more tapered lower walls.

The wadcutter's walls only start getting thick just below it's lower cannelure while the (+P)'s starts getting thicker higher, where the upper cannelure would be on it, if it had one.

.

My bad, should have looked at the date, found the thread doing a google search. I should have just started a new thread.

Thanks for the tidbit of info on the case differences, in addition to the cannelure. I'll check the thickness and wall taper on the ones I use.

I do wonder at what step in case manufacture or loading the cannelure is added.