Magazine springs

[mrmike7189]

I have 2 or 3 spare recoil springs and magazine springs for each gun I own. I have had hi cap mag springs get weak and not work before and it is cheap insurance to buy extras and keep them handy if you plan on owning a gun for 20+ years you will no doubt need to replace them.

 

[Saudade]

Well this thread went waaayyy deeper into the subject than usual.

Thanks to Walt for providing such details and references.

We can talk about theory all day. What matters here is what's practical. What's practical for me may differ than you.

I have more than 1 magazine for all my mag fed handguns and rifles. Only 1 each remains loaded, all others are unloaded. When I visit the range, I take the loaded mag along with a few spares. When done, I load up a different mag for storage, essentially rotating the mags. Since I don't shoot them all regularly, any given mag may remain loaded for 6 months or more.

I've not yet had an issue with feeding from any of them. This includes my Sig 2022, M&P 9, Beretta 92, a magpul AR mag, and a Ruger Mini14 mag.

Since I live in CA, all mags are restricted to 10 rounds. For my M&P mags, S&W uses a short mag body with extended base and the FS springs. This keeps the mag spring pretty compressed even when empty.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I have more than 1 magazine for all my mag fed handguns and rifles. Only 1 each remains loaded, all others are unloaded. When I visit the range, I take the loaded mag along with a few spares. When done, I load up a different mag for storage, essentially rotating the mags. Since I don't shoot them all regularly, any given mag may remain loaded for 6 months or more.

Nothing wrong with that approach. Especially if you're downloading a round (or two). It will, of course, depend on the gun and the number of rounds its magazines can carry.

I would note, too, for the others reading here, that rotating mags doesn't extend spring life -- it just makes another mag spring do the work instead. While that will increase the time between failures over the short-term. over the longer term using more magazines, you'll still cause the same amount of spring wear and force the same number of springs to be replaced. That's because springs don't recuperate or heal when they're setting unused.

If you feel it important to have good backup magazines on hand for possible later emergencies -- or know you're going to need a bunch of loaded magazines for matches (where you might not have time to reload mags between stages or scenarios), set some aside for that purpose and try to only load them up when you KNOW you're going to need them. Your home defense or self-defense gun can be loaded fully and left that way.

If you feel you need to keep some loaded mags for carry or for an extended period, you might want to consider downloading them a round or two (especially if they're really HIGH CAPACITY magazines). That's what Wolff Springs recommends on their website. Having a couple of spare mag springs in your storage area would be a good practice, too.

If you do that, you can just use one or two magazines over and over again at the range if you use them periodically to be sure they work as they should so that you're NOT caught by surprise with a gun that doesn't function as it should.

• 
  If you start to have feeding problems with the mags you're using, pull out one or two of your reserve mags and start using them. Then order and replace the springs in the mags you had been using, and add them to your magazine reserves.

If you're lucky, or if your gun's designer have a good magazine design that's easy on mag springs, you may find yourself just replacing one or two mag springs every couple of years, and you will never be caught with a non-functioning weapon (like I was once with all six of my Kahr P9 mag springs failing at one time).

 

[akdude]

It has been scientifically proven years ago that what weakens spring is not being compressed while loaded, but the continuous acts of using and loading them!

I have several AK and AR 30 rd. mags that have been loaded 30 yrs. and they all still work fine when used, however on older AR mags from the Vietnam era & later some makes did have issues with the feed lips spreading and thus causing issues due to cheaper aluminium, but i never had that issue but it was well known and thus soldiers would load 2 rds. less than max!

I also have some Beretta 18 rd. mags which are and have been loaded 20 + yrs. with no issues, but some cheap mags from Lorcin have been known to fail after being loaded a few months, which i have seen happen to a few on the range.

 

[Smoke]

It has been scientifically proven years ago that what weakens spring is not being compressed while loaded, but the continuous acts of using and loading them!

Well if it was scientifically proven you shouldn't have any problem at all posting a link to the studies

 

[Steve912]

I have several AK and AR 30 rd. mags that have been loaded 30 yrs. and they all still work fine when used,

I also have some Beretta 18 rd. mags which are and have been loaded 20 + yrs. with no issues,:

Check Walt's comments on mag design, regarding capacity vs.
elastic deformation.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There are plenty of examples of 7-round 1911 magazines that have been left loaded since 1946 that worked perfectly when used after almost 60 or 70 years. The springs in that magazine, when fully loaded, don't really reach the spring's elastic limit.

On the other hand it's easy to find examples of coil springs that can fail after a relatively few cycles. That's the case with the recoil spring in the Rohrbaugh R9, one of the smallest 9mm semi-autos ever made. It had a recommended cycle life of just 250 rounds.

Why, if the gun is shooting standard self-defense loads, does that recoil spring only last 250 rounds when recoil springs in other guns might last 5,000+ rounds. Less metal in a smaller space asked to do the work of much longer, stronger springs?

Why, in a car engine that has valve springs, can a coil spring last many, many millions of compressions (cycles) without failure. That's true of many engines. How can they last through so many cycles? Because they were designed and are used in a way that the spring is never pushed to it's elastic limit.

Different applications in gun designs are created with different goals in mind. Some magazine designs use the same springs to run a 10-round magazine as are used in a 15- or 16-round magazine. Those different springs aren't compressed to the same level when their magazines are fully loaded. In some gun designs springs are apparently intended (i.e., designed) to be "renewable resources" -- they'll work well at a heavier load level for a shorter period of time, but they'll allow the gun (or their magazine) to do things that couldn't otherwise be done with standard springs. In some cases, there just isn't enough SPACE to put in a more conventional spring that will do the job.

Most coil springs in guns will last for a lot of cycles, and some may never fail. But cycling alone isn't the only thing that degrades or otherwise wears springs out. Anyone who claims otherwise is welcome to offer their proofs, and valid tests or research results are certain credible evidence.

 

[Dpris]

Conjecture, rumor, in-exact comparisons, and "science" aside, I related my story about Glock mag springs as a first-hand experience in real life.

And I guarantee our mag springs did not shorten from repeated cycling.
The greatest majority of us, myself included since I didn't like that 17, were NOT regularly firing them.

The springs were taking a set in mags carried by guys who never cycled them at all between department qualifiers.
I at least was rotating mine a couple times a year, if not shooting them regularly.
Denis

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There's an actual test shown in the LINK found in response #16 above, showing Ruger and Glock mags springs, over time, kept compressed for a couple of years. No cycling, just kept fully loaded. You'll see that the power of the springs have changed when measured. The mags still function properly, but the degradation of the springs was NOT from cycling... the were only cycled(emptied and later reloaded) a couple of time to measure their relative strength and to see if they still functioned properly.

Here's the link, again:

Magazine springs - The Firing Line Forums

The guy doing the test is an engineer, a knowledgeable and enthusiastic gun owner, and someone also very experienced with spring-powered air guns. He's also a staffer on that forum.

 

[Rastoff]

Recoil springs and magazine springs CAN DEGRADE if left fully compressed for long periods, but only if, when fully compressed, the springs are near their design limits. But MORE than cycling can degrade springs.

I've avoided this discussion because it's often like the gun lube or caliber debates. However, it's refreshing to see that at least one person understands.

Yes, springs can degrade if left compressed. Yes, this degradation will be worse if left fully compressed.

I worked in a calibration lab for 22 years. In all that time I've calibrated thousands of torque wrenches. The tension/strength of the spring in a click type torque wrench is critical. If left compressed, i.e. set to a torque value other than the lowest one, this will compromise the accuracy of the torque wrench. I know this because I've personally checked thousands and tossed out a lot of them. If you want to talk about torque wrenches, that's for another thread. This was just to show that springs left compressed will be affected and it's measurable.


I did a test. I used two brand new ejector springs for a Browning shotgun. Then I fully compressed one and left the other uncompressed, for a year. Here are the results:

They started the same length, but after a year they are different. The one that was compressed lost some power.

But the question at hand isn't asking if a spring will lose power. What we all really want to know is, will my device (regardless of what it is) continue to function if a spring is left compressed? The answer is emphatically yes.

So, leave all your mags loaded and guns cocked. The springs might lose a little power over 50 years, but not enough to prevent their reliably functioning.

 

[squidsix]

Get a brand new car, park it, and leave it in a garage without driving it for, say, 50 years.
It will not need new springs.
I bought a case of two-tone 1911 magazines from WWI in a group buy with some friends a few years ago. They had been loaded in storage for more than 100 years.
All the ammo in them fired, and all the magazines worked perfectly and locked the slide open on modern pistols.
These were "music wire" magazine springs, not the super awesome chrome silicone springs that people use now. I imagine that a fully loaded pistol mag from any modern maker would work perfectly 100 years from now.

 

[Rastoff]

Just for the record, as long as I have ammo, I keep all my mags loaded.

 

[joe44va]

All this sprung my springs and exhausted me.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

They started the same length, but after a year they are different. The one that was compressed lost some power.

But the question at hand isn't asking if a spring will lose power. What we all really want to know is, will my device (regardless of what it is) continue to function if a spring is left compressed? The answer is emphatically yes.

Spring manufacturers will tell you that any new coil spring will take an immediate set after brief usage. It's something that the spring designers anticipate and build into their design specs. What you've described above is likely just that.

That's not the type of spring degradation my earlier comments addressed.

The loss of ability to function IS an issue with some coil spring applications, but not all. Cycling alone isn't the issue -- How DEEPLY the spring is cycled (either compression or extension) is the issue.

As I noted in an earlier response, folks who shoot suppressed guns often find that their guns won't run when they first install a suppressor, because the recoil springs are too stout. When a lighter weight spring isn't available, they simply lock the slide back for a week or two, and then they're in business again.​

Those recoil springs degraded by being left compressed for much longer than usual.

The Rohrbaugh R9 recoil spring was originally designed to last about 300 rounds, but Rohrbaugh later recommended replacing the recoil spring after 250 rounds. That's a very small 9mm semi-auto, and there's not much space in the tiny frame for a recoil spring. The Rohrbaugh HAD TO PUSH ITS RECOIL SPRING TO ITS ELASTIC LIMITS in order for get a spring that would cycle the gun and still fit in the tiny space available in that design. The springs worked well, but didn't last as long as other recoil springs.

Other full-size guns firing the same rounds may cycle 5,000- to 10,000 rounds without the recoil spring being replaced. Cycling alone isn't the issue.

Pushing a spring near its limit is what causes wear; backing off from that limit does not increase the risk of wear -- it reduces it. Taking a 17 round mag and never loading it beyond 14 rounds may greatly extend the spring's working life. (But, if the spring isn't near or at it's elastic limit at 17 rounds, not much is gained by downloading several rounds.)

Some magazine springs in hi-cap mags have been designed to intentionally push their springs to their elastic limits -- because as was the case with the Rohrbaugh R9, it was the only way to get the job done -- to get the required number of rounds into the available space and still have a magazine that works! Those springs will fail sooner than springs in other designs.

That's one of the few rules that applies to all springs: if, when cycled, the spring is pushed (or pulled) to or beyond it's elastic limit, it will degrade. It's a form of metal fatigue. Most springs in most gun designs are NOT pushed that far. But some are.

 

[Rastoff]

I agree Walt Sherrill. I did take the "set" into account when I did my experiment. Nevertheless, springs are usually misunderstood. It's good to see that some get it.

 

[cmj8591]

I think the engineers at Smith know about the elastic limits of springs and take it into account when they design their mags and other things using springs. If they say a magazine holds a certain number of rounds then that's how many rounds can go in the mag. They teach at the armorers school that it is unnecessary to unload a magazine or keep the mag loaded with less than the number of rounds that it holds and that is my experience also. Load up your mags. You won't live long enough to ruin them. Replace the factory spring with an after market and all bets are off.

 

[akdude]

All my M&P 2.0 mags hold 18 instead of 17 all my VP9 mags hold 16 instead of 15!

The question was if springs work if mags left loaded long period of time and answer is if good quality made mags there should not be issues if 1 yr. or 30 to which i can attest!

"Common Sense" tells U that if a spring stays compressed it will get a little shorter but not to the point where the mags wont work!

This thread was about if mags will still work and not if the springs will get a little shorter when they stay compressed if quality made there should not be any issues, but have over yrs. seen somebody using a Lorcin gun/mag and pro-mags not working due to being loaded 6 months to a yr!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The question was if springs work if mags left loaded long period of time and answer is if good quality made mags there should not be issues if 1 yr. or 30 to which i can attest!

Early in this discussion several folks said ONLY CYCLING wears out a spring. I said other things affect them, too. It went from there.

"Common Sense" tells U that if a spring stays compressed it will get a little shorter but not to the point where the mags wont work!

The thing about common sense is that it's not as common as most people think.

Springs will get shorter -- there's no question about that. and some of that will happen almost immediately -- as soon as the spring is put to work -- and you won't see a lot more shortening for a long, long time. Some springs -- perhaps most -- will continue to function, regardless. But others won't.

Other mag springs simply won't do the job any more, won't lift the rounds up to be caught by the slide. And if you pull them out of the magazine, you'll find that they haven't really shortened all that much. But they've lost the ability to do work.

You seem to assume that all springs have the same service life, regardless of how they're used, regardless of their size, and whether they're used in a different gun or a different capacity magazine. Why would you make that kind of assumption?

Why does a sub-compact .45's recoil spring have maybe half (if that) the service life of a full-size .45's recoil spring?

Why does a Rorhbaugh R9 only get 250 -300 rounds out of it's recoil springs? It's just a 9mm semi-auto. Most 9mm recoil springs are good for thousands of rounds fired!

It's because different springs must fit different areas in different guns, and must do different kinds of work with more or less spring material to get the same results as other guns.

Why do guys who run silenceers/suppressors, if they can't find a light enough spring to let their gun cycle properly, lock back the slide for a week or two to weaken it? Wonder what would happen if they left that spring locked back for a couple of months. Heck, why not try that with one of your guns, and tells us what happens.

I think most guns will continue to function properly when mags are left fully loaded -- because those mags are designed in a way that the springs aren't compressed to or beyond their elastic limits. But a few will not do well if they're left fully loaded -- or they'll do well, but just won't do it as long as other mags for other guns. We've had testimony here from a number of shooters who can cite examples of properly maintained guns and magazines that had problems with mags that had been left loaded for long periods.

I also showed a link to a test of Ruger and Glock mags that weren't cycled much, but left fully compressed for long periods. Both mags continued to work -- good designs -- but the Glock mags lost much less spring power than the Ruger mag. Why, if only cycling wears down a spring, was there a big difference in spring power? Do still assume that all mags work the same and that their springs all respond to the work they do in the same way? Or that all mag springs are the same?

At least one spring maker -- Wolff Springs -- recommends downloading high capacity mags a round or two for long-term storage. (They offer that as general recommendation, but they know that some mags don't have to be downloaded. Doing that doesn't help them sell more mag springs, so they're probably probably trying to prolong spring life for the mag designs that aren't as forgiving.) Wolff clearly understand how springs are made and what wears them out. And suggesting that folks download some mags to prolong spring life won't help them sell more springs. I guess they just don't have common sense...

 

[Protected One]

I've avoided this discussion because it's often like the gun lube or caliber debates. However, it's refreshing to see that at least one person understands.

Yes, springs can degrade if left compressed. Yes, this degradation will be worse if left fully compressed.

I did a test. I used two brand new ejector springs for a Browning shotgun. Then I fully compressed one and left the other uncompressed, for a year. Here are the results:

They started the same length, but after a year they are different. The one that was compressed lost some power.

But the question at hand isn't asking if a spring will lose power. What we all really want to know is, will my device (regardless of what it is) continue to function if a spring is left compressed? The answer is emphatically yes.

So, leave all your mags loaded and guns cocked. The springs might lose a little power over 50 years, but not enough to prevent their reliably functioning.

Nailed it!
[At least TWO get it, Rastoff]

 

[akdude]

I have tons of mags, since seem there has/is always talk of high cap ban, mostly military surplus new and used and i always keep many loaded AK/AR also have M9 Beretta mags and Glock mags which have been loaded 20 + yrs and all work as good as when new and naturally they do get a little easier to load after time and never had a mag issue!

However there are some companies whose life span on Keltecs is and Keltec tells U 5K at best on its handguns. there are many other "Saturday Night Specials" whose mags are not worth anything and generally neither are the guns.

As with anything basically u get what u pay for (usually) and if u buy something with a proven back ground that tells u something.

The highly touted Hudson H9 is going under due to many issues and even mag issues and the Sig P365 is lately also having issues with mag springs along with everything else and we know trigger springs on those always break also!