fiasconva
US Veteran
I agree with Rastoff 100%. What you see is a classic example of what is called slide bite. I cringe every time I see someone at the range teaching someone to use the thumb over thumb grip with a semi.
Help with proper grip on semi auto
- Thread starter HughD1
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Thumbs forward/parallel to the firearm works for some people on some pistols. Due to differences in hand size and the location and shape of controls, it may not work for everyone on everything.
I can't use the grip on BHPs or the M&P series because it causes issues with the slide stop on both designs. I get inadvertent slide stop early's with the M&P series (thumb bumps the slide stop, locking the slide open with ammo still in the magazine). I suppose if I really worked at it, I could come up with a way to eliminate it, but thumbs down (but not like your wife's) works fine for me.
Her grip works fine for her. Quit worrying about it, it's very similar to the way auto pistols were used for decades before the thumbs forward was discovered. Her grip isn't wrong, it's just different/traditional.
I can't use the grip on BHPs or the M&P series because it causes issues with the slide stop on both designs. I get inadvertent slide stop early's with the M&P series (thumb bumps the slide stop, locking the slide open with ammo still in the magazine). I suppose if I really worked at it, I could come up with a way to eliminate it, but thumbs down (but not like your wife's) works fine for me.
Her grip works fine for her. Quit worrying about it, it's very similar to the way auto pistols were used for decades before the thumbs forward was discovered. Her grip isn't wrong, it's just different/traditional.
There is a big difference between being a shooter/shooting and fighting with a gun/self-defense. Range and competitive shooting has very little in common with what occurs during most civilian personal defense scenarios, so the best approach for one is not usually the best for the other.
Some articles from Mas Ayoob you may find useful...
5 Lost Secrets of Combat Handgunnery | Gun Digest
How to shoot a handgun accurately | Backwoods Home Magazine
Some articles from Mas Ayoob you may find useful...
5 Lost Secrets of Combat Handgunnery | Gun Digest
How to shoot a handgun accurately | Backwoods Home Magazine
SoCalDep
Member
I completely disagree except that the reason competitive shooting has "little in common" with defensive scenarios is that most defensive scenarios involve people who haven't dedicated themselves to actually being good... that includes the vast majority of law enforcement shootings. If I'm drowning I want a lifeguard to come save me, but as my head slips slowly beneath the water I'm gonna hope that lifeguard can swim like Michael Phelps.
There is a big reason the most elite special operations unit in the United States paid and pays big money to train with high-level competitive shooters, and why the members of that unit are often very involved in competition.
We are not taking about Law enforcement and Spec Ops and most of what is applicable to them is not relevant to civilian self-defense. I think a big problem with a lot of training today is that most instructors have a military or law enforcement background and see everything through that prism. A Navy SEAL is very good at being a Navy SEAL, but that doesn't mean he is the best teacher for someone looking for integrated civilian conceal carry skills.
In terms of your Michael Phelps analogy... he trains to propel his own body through the water, in a calm pool no less. He doesn't train or likely know how to save someome from drowning in potentially rough water and physically help them back to land. Just as a competitve shooters skill likely has limited application in non-sporting civilian situations. It would be like saying a word-class point karate competitor is the best source for real world unarmed self-defense or rape prevention skills. There is obviously some degree of crossover, but it's relatively limited IMO.
It's all about context and the only context I'm interested in and referring to is civilian self-defense.
crankyoldlady
Member
Over time, the two handed grip has evolved. No one here would teach the grip taught at the 5:04 minute mark in this 1940s-50s training film. There is a reason no one uses this style. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP7J-JNSUu4[/ame]
SoCalDep
Member
Your context is wrong. Proper technique is proper technique, and the argument that techniques which develop top performance don't apply to self defense is simply an excuse for poor technique.
Like I said - I'd want a lifeguard, but I want my lifeguard to be the best they can be. I've carried a gun for personal defense just about every day for the past 16 years... I compete... I've worked a particularly busy area at a particularly large law enforcement department. I've seen shootings and I've studied aspects of shootings at my job. I've trained with top civilian, law enforcement, and military shooters and I get paid a lot of money to train people full time. There is a common thread in all those situations... once the gun is out it's about being the first with the mostest and loud noises don't generally win gunfights...
I'm not saying everyone has to be a top spec-ops SWAT operator, but poor technique is poor technique and saying self defense is "different" is an excuse.
SoCalDep
Member
Your last phrase is on point! Vogel's control is awesome, and his grip works great for him, but his grip strength is what allows him to do some of what he does... and that's why Rastoff's comment regarding "good training" is absolutely correct. Everyone is a bit different and a good instructor knows what little variations make the individual's grip the best "for them".
I can't do the Vogel grip method because I don't have the grip strength and I have some elbow issues which prevent it, but I use the Ron Avery/Mike Seeklander method and that works really well for me.
My context is civilian self-defense. My goal is to avoid engaging when possible, which will be most of the time. Ranged gunfights are an extremely rare occurrence to be forced into and I have no interest in intervening in affairs that don't directly concern me. Any situation I'm forced to engage in will be at very close-range if not at contact distance. Reactive and avoid for the armed civilian vs Proactive and intentially engage for the LEO. Big difference. I spend most of my time working on integrated skills in that context. A competitve shooter doesn't work on them at all and most LEO's work on them very little with a few exceptions here and there. And in that context, proper technique will differ.
What I needed as a professional fighter and would teach other fighters is very different to the DT I taught cops, which again is very different from the self-defense techniques I taught to civilians. It's the same with armed defense.
SoCalDep
Member
So do you teach a different hammer fist to each? A different carotid restraint? Maybe we can just half *** the rear naked choke because in a self-defense situation it's different.
Yes, the tactics and application changes, but the technique is the technique, and we know what works better and we know what works worse. To call a grip that works better in a fight a "gamer grip" is a mis-application if the concept of context and an excuse for those who don't want to put forth the effort to develop the skills to be better.
There's nothing wrong with not wanting to put forth that effort... everyone has their priorities. I will readily admit I have not dedicated myself as I should to hand-to-hand combative skills. I don't make excuses for it.
This thread is about two-hand grip. In that "context" you are providing bad information.
Yes, the tactics and application changes, but the technique is the technique, and we know what works better and we know what works worse. To call a grip that works better in a fight a "gamer grip" is a mis-application if the concept of context and an excuse for those who don't want to put forth the effort to develop the skills to be better.
There's nothing wrong with not wanting to put forth that effort... everyone has their priorities. I will readily admit I have not dedicated myself as I should to hand-to-hand combative skills. I don't make excuses for it.
This thread is about two-hand grip. In that "context" you are providing bad information.
BJJ for MMA or sport Jiu-Jitsu is different than BJJ in a weapon-based environment. The same s true for any striking-based systems. Some techniques that are effective and suitable for the cage are often a very bad idea for the street. Plus, based on the rules of the particular sport, actual execution of a specific technique may actually differ from its execution in a defensive context.
So why can't the way you grip your gun or use cover and utilize movement for that matter differ betwen competitive shooting and an actual defense scenario when you consider all factors? I thought the Mas Ayoob article I shared presented that concept pretty well. If you disagree, that just means that you have a different opinion, not that you are correct or that anyone is lazy or making excuses because they don't follow your current approach.
SoCalDep
Member
What factors differentiate techniques when using a two-hand grip on a handgun? Are you saying one should grip the gun differently using cover? No... not at all. Grip the gun differently when moving? Nope! How does that differ between competition, military, law enforcement, and self defense?
Again, do you train a rear naked choke differently for self defense compared to another application of a rear naked choke?
People are totally allowed to do what they want... 'Merica and all that... but thumbs-forward, when trained correctly, is better than thumbs over thumbs (Gunsite style) ... we're not talking about whether a two hand grip is ideal or possible in a self defense scenario. We're talking about two hand grip... and it is settled. If you use thumbs over thumbs you are smply, undeniably, and measurably less effective than thumbs forward.
Again, do you train a rear naked choke differently for self defense compared to another application of a rear naked choke?
People are totally allowed to do what they want... 'Merica and all that... but thumbs-forward, when trained correctly, is better than thumbs over thumbs (Gunsite style) ... we're not talking about whether a two hand grip is ideal or possible in a self defense scenario. We're talking about two hand grip... and it is settled. If you use thumbs over thumbs you are smply, undeniably, and measurably less effective than thumbs forward.
crankyoldlady
Member
The owner of "THE CORNERED CAT" website advocates that women use the revolver style grip (thumbs locked down) with pistols as well. She reasons that it is harder for the bad guy to grab your firearm out of your hand when held this way.
This seems correct if the primary goal is to keep your handgun from being taken.
In recent years she has become an admirer of Mas Ayoob. And her website reflects his techniques and philosophies.
Ten years ago I really liked the website, but, because I now disagree with much of it, I NEVER recommend THE CORNERED CAT.
This seems correct if the primary goal is to keep your handgun from being taken.
In recent years she has become an admirer of Mas Ayoob. And her website reflects his techniques and philosophies.
Ten years ago I really liked the website, but, because I now disagree with much of it, I NEVER recommend THE CORNERED CAT.
When applying a RNC or any technique on the street, you have to consider possibilities that you don't in the cage or ring and therefore may want to use a different technique. The same applies to the way you grip a handgun. The thumbs forward grip may very well be better in your context, but I know it's not better in mine.
I think you're envisioning being involved in some type of ranged gunfight and preparing accordingly. I'm not. Any self-defense scenario I expect to be forced to respond in is going to occur at contact distances and I train from that perspective.
People often reference Jerry Miculeks abilities on this forum, but on the street he carries a J-frame in a pocket. The set-up and skills he exhibits in his sport have very little relevance in accessing that J-Frame from a pocket in some type of reactive close-quarter defense scenario, which is what he is most likely to encounter as an armed civilian intent on minding his own business. Jerry is a phenomenal shooter/competitor, but that doesn't translate into him being a phenomenal fighter/defender.
SoCalDep
Member
I'm not envisioning anything. The discussion is regarding the two-hand grip. Whether this is the best choice given the circumstances is irrelevant. The relevant subject matter is the two hand grip. Please enlighten me as to when a different two-hand grip would be more advantageous than a thumbs-forward grip (excepting injuries and such which necessitate doing what one can with what one has).
In addition, we've not discussed accessing the firearm or numerous other tactical aspects of self defense, which I agree in many ways differ from competition, military, or law enforcement, but we are in fact discussing a two hand grip which is a technique that has been evaluated, analyzed, and refined to the point that advocating thumbs over is simply ignorant or to create an excuse for lack of skill.
The rear naked choke may not be the best choice, but I've seen it done to great affect in a street fight. I also know a well skilled BJJ enthusiast take down a man who was beating his girlfriend, and then proceeded to get his *** kicked because he didn't see the second guy. Whether it is the best choice is absolutely irrelevant to how it is applied. Technique is what it is. Tactics are what they are. They each have their context and mistaking one for the other is a great way to lose a fight... however it presents.
The context in which any technique is going to be used should always be considered. My understanding based on the OP is that we are discussing concealed carry, not simply range, target or competitive shooting. Considering practicality, reliabilty, versatility, transitioning between one and two handed shooting as well as overall grip stability and weapon retention, I don't think a thumbs forward grip is preferred in the presented context, especially in the case of the OP.
The Combat Grip - Handguns
The Combat Grip - Handguns
SoCalDep
Member
You still offer no evidence or argument in favor of another two hand grip. The entire point of the original post was thumbs forward vs. thumb over thumb - gunsite style - for a two hand grip.
I have even asked you to provide a context where the two-hand grip (the entire point of the original post) would be better not using a thumb forward grip and you continue to issue a vague assertion that I'm wrong while providing no actual opposing technique. Your statement that it might not be the best choice doesn't apply when that is the choice or the necessity.
I have even asked you to provide a context where the two-hand grip (the entire point of the original post) would be better not using a thumb forward grip and you continue to issue a vague assertion that I'm wrong while providing no actual opposing technique. Your statement that it might not be the best choice doesn't apply when that is the choice or the necessity.
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SoCalDep
Member
The link you provided is interesting... Brian Enos, Dave Sevigney, Rob Leatham, and we can add Mike Seeklander, Mike Pannone, Ernest Langdon, JJ Raccaza, Pat MacNamara, Larry Vickers, Frank Proctor, and many other top gunfighters and shooters advocate thumbs forward. The main detraction in the article is that it's hard to teach... B frigin S. It's the standard grip of my department and a bunch of others and I've tought it to first time shooters over and over again.
One of the most experienced law enforcement gunfighters of the modern era, Jim Cirillo, was a competitive shooter and felt it was extremely beneficial... even after his gunfights.
I don't discount combatives, one-hand shooting, retention techniques, and ECQC-stuff, but when the time comes to put two hands on the gun, if you're shooting weaver (barring mandate from injury) you're hindering your effectiveness.
One of the most experienced law enforcement gunfighters of the modern era, Jim Cirillo, was a competitive shooter and felt it was extremely beneficial... even after his gunfights.
I don't discount combatives, one-hand shooting, retention techniques, and ECQC-stuff, but when the time comes to put two hands on the gun, if you're shooting weaver (barring mandate from injury) you're hindering your effectiveness.
Started out shooting revolvers 50 plus years ago with the revolver hold ( Gun hand cupped in off hand). There are a number of sites to describe this hold.
When I started shooting pistols I kept this method ( it provides better support and overall control) JMO and is good for BOTH platforms!
As stated above, use the hold she is most comfortable and accurate with!
Be SAFE and Shoot often!
When I started shooting pistols I kept this method ( it provides better support and overall control) JMO and is good for BOTH platforms!
As stated above, use the hold she is most comfortable and accurate with!
Be SAFE and Shoot often!
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