Factors in Surviving Gunfights
- Thread starter gerhard1
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7shooter
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Great quote :
Winston Churchill : " Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result " .
IIRC he was a WWI vet.
Gerhard1-Exactly correct. They are all homicides but categorically different as in, negligent, justified, etc. I was LE a long time ago, but the handle has stuck. Sorry, I'm not sure I know of an exception.
I was responding to the latest posting. On one hand you seem to support marksmanship and on the other you discount it. I would think that protecting one's head comes readily to most people without training. The defensive injuries on victims of attack would seem to prove that out. I certainly agree that aged and handicapped folks are prime targets for attacks. We should always be situationally aware and take actions to remove ourselves or attract attention when the red flags are up. We should also have our homes hardened and security systems in place. My biggest problem is that you direct your philosophy of training toward young, physically able folks when most of us aren't. From your posts, I gather that you are physically fit, well-versed in the martial arts, as well as, highly skilled with weapons. That's great!
I believe that is an accurate statement.
ME TOO!!!! Larry
I don't put much value on what many people refer to as marksmanship(relatively slow, longer range controlled accurate target shooting) in the context of armed civilian self-defense and based on your post and since you used the term "jerking the trigger", I assume that's probably what you meant. My priority is being able to make hits quickly at close-range(focusing on contact out to about 7 yards)and I agree with most of what's stated in the Rob Leathem video on how best to go about accomplishing it, which is contrary to a lot of what I see recommended.
A startle-flinch response and reflexively bringing the hands up to block, cover or push away threats is instinctive, but that doesn't mean people automatically do it in the most effective way or efficiently at all.
In terms of self-defense preparedness, few would disagree being young and strong is obviously better than old and weak, but pretty much everyone can make improvements in their fitness, mobility and overall health which will be a benefit regardless. I've worked with people in wheelchairs, those with developmental disabilities as well as the elderly and limitations must be accepted, understood and will direct suitable training and appropriate responses.
In some countries it is the coup de grace that is sometimes administered in an execution by firing squad.
There now, don't you feel better and wiser for having that totally useless bit of knowledge?
I think the issue here is avoiding the "shoot to wound" thinking that I've seen with my own kids. "Can't I just shoot (perp) in the leg?
No, Honey, you'll likely miss. Shoot center of mass.
Quite different from applying a coup de grace to an assailant that's already down (not a threat).
Threat/no threat is the point in that decision tree, not killed/alive. IMO.
Attachments
Ned Kelly was hung, and his head popped off when they hung him.In the end it didn't help Ned Kelly much.
Granted, if I'm going out to buy a sandwich, I'll probably not have body armor, but if I'm going to a gunfight, given my druthers, I will be wearing body armor.
and a helmet. and a rifle. And some other guys on my side.Because you're still focused on training simulating the real world in some way, instead of developing skills. That any class could simulate the future is borderline laughable. What is this, tarot card reading? They know I'm going to get carjacked by a guy with a knife at 1:48PM in July (cuz lol, I've never seen one of these hokey classes get done at night, heaven forbid).
Think of it this way--if you can't make decent shots when you have (allegedly) all this extra time, how in the hell do you think you're going to do it when you don't? Learn how to pull the trigger. It's not hard.
Literally, I think if you can't break 220 or 230, a pistol might as well be the surface of the moon to you. 220 points is "hitting the paper most of the time". I did better in my first match. And you don't magically get any better by dancing around with ants in your pants and touching your belly button to the target.
You don't execute a "defensive" pull of the trigger any different than a precision one. If you want to learn how to shoot well and fast, you first have to learn to shoot well.
Like, for starters, if you think the "generous time allowances" of bullseye are remotely relevant to you actually shooting, you're wrong. A Slow Fire trigger pull takes no longer than 1.5-2 seconds, max. That's all it takes to hit a 10-ring the size of a quarter, one-handed, at 50 feet (or 3 inches at 50 yards, if you're just not good enough to hack it indoors). Taking longer does not--again, magically--make you any more accurate. It actually makes you less accurate. Learn to freakin' shoot.
To be clear, there's some rolling-on-the-ground classes I would take, I just feel like spending my time and money on other stuff.
EDIT: And, of course, if you're already a reasonably precise shot, then it's time to start fixing other gaping holes in your skillset. Like, you require an appointment book to get your gun out in time.
I keep using that word, skillset. Almost like it's some individualized hierarchy of things you need to do to suck less!
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He was hanged! Hung he may have been, the coroner would have been in a position to see.
Is it 'Hung' or 'Hanged'? | Merriam-Webster
He was hanged! Hung he may have been, the coroner would have been in a position to see.
Is it 'Hung' or 'Hanged'? | Merriam-Webster
Personally I'd rather be hung than hanged....
Two points in response: one is that great precision is not necessary in a fight. What I strive for is accuracy. The goal, assuming that you can't avoid the fight altogether, is to put your adversary out of action as fast as you can.
Accuracy and precision are not the same thing. If your goal is precision, you strive to make the smallest group possible within, say, a 6" target. If the goal is combat accuracy, then a hit anywhere in the 6" target is acceptable. As an aside, hits that are close together (precision) might only damage the same area on the target, while shots that are more widely dispersed could do more damage and put the foe out of action earlier.
The second point is that in a self defense encounter, you are not likely to have time to form a perfect sight picture on the enemy's chest. In fact, I train for an encounter that is going to be at very close range and both the bad guy and myself are going to be moving. What's more, there might not be time to use my sights so a great deal of my training is going to be and does involve un-sighted fire.
While I have never been in a gunfight, (and I sincerely hope I never am!) I understand that they usually occur suddenly, at very close range, with extremely limited time intervals and both parties moving. Under these conditions great precision is almost impossible, and the best you can realistically hope for is combat accuracy.
While precise shooting is not a bad skill to have, I question its' usefulness to the defensive shooter.
I agree with your line of thinking, which some people just don't get because they have never trained to perfect marksmanship fundamentals. We are not saying that focusing on precision shooting will make one a gunfighter. What we are saying is that the skills learned, like trigger control and sight alignment make a good foundation upon which to build. Other skills, like drawing, shooting from cover, shooting with the weak hand, loading magazines in the pistol, moving, etc. can be added. The skills learned in precision shooting are modified in combat type shooting to include more rapid trigger manipulation and flash sight alignment when necessary. The run and gun folks don't understand the fundamentals learned in precision (bullseye shooting) unless they have practiced them, therefore they take a us vs. them stance. Here's a shocker, Rob Leatham shoots bullseye pistol matches! It doesn't look like that is holding him back!
You're not looking to achieve what I'd call precision. You're learning precision so that you can apply that to shooting faster and more or less accurately. The target and distance requirements of a discipline like bullseye magnify errors that you'd miss shooting for an A-zone--the most common one being failing to have an uninterrupted, linear increase in trigger pressure. There's nothing written that says you can't do exactly that four or five times in a second.
I know of one gunfight involving a Master-class bullseye shooter. Dude managed what I recall was a KFC, which was robbed by some guy with a S&W .38. Anyways, the robber decides to shoot Bullseye Dude from a range of 3-5 yards. Robber Guy gets off three shots, manages to hit our hero in the shooting arm with the first one, pegs a bag of flour with the second.
Bullseye Dude, armed with some no-name *** .380 or .32 or some damn thing, and wounded in the arm while getting his gun up, gets six shots off. Shots #1-#4 hit Robber Guy square in the chest, but fail to reach his heart because of a bundle of rolled quarters he's clutching while firing. But they blow apart the change, and shot #5 goes to the same exact place, this time penetrating. Shot #6 hits the door as Robber Guy slams it trying to run out of the store. He makes it about a hundred yards before he realizes he's dead.
Couple things here.
The first is that, at a certain point, you don't really use your sights in Bullseye like a lot of people would assume. For one thing, the sights never stop moving. For another, they cover a much larger area than I actually want to hit. I get asked a lot how I "aim" for the 10-ring, when I really don't--it's .9 inches at 50 feet, nobody holds that good. Most of the time, I can't even really see any of the scoring rings. So "aiming" is really "Are the sights wobbling over the big black circle, and is that wobble more or less centered?". Everything else, the difference between a 6 and a 10, is trigger. Okay, maybe a little is mystic stuff like "arm tension" and "shot process", but doing nothing but trigger and not interrupting the wobble will get you 100% 8-10s.
Literally, I will sometimes make a joke that "So-and-so still thinks the bullet's gonna go where the dot is". Bullet doesn't go where the dot is, bullet goes where the dot's gonna be, so unless you can see the future and react in milliseconds, trying to aim 10s might as well be reading tea leaves or rabbit entrails or sumsuch.
The other is that, if you're not using your sights--and here I would say, train to try and use your sights, and also train without them because you'll probably just be pointing and shooting cuz some dude is trying to kill you--all you really have to hit the target with is pointing and trigger. Okay, pointing is natural-enough if you picked a gun that fits you, the trigger is what gets you because you've no feedback to see how badly you messed up your pointing with a janky trigger pull.
Two related stories. The first is when I finished building my match gun, I hustled off to shoot it without checking my red dot's battery. It was dead, but I still really wanted to shoot, so I shot with just a tube and no dot. First string was 5 in the 4.5" black, 4 in the 10-ring, all at 50 feet, from little more than pointing and trigger. I think I shot a box of ammo like that with maybe 2 or 3 hits in the white. You can do a lot with just pointing and trigger.
Second is, one day I decided to try the ol' no-sights shootin'. I loaded up my G26, pointed it at the target one-handed (the gun wasn't even close to aligned with my head), and took five quick shots. Again, all five in the black, 4.5", 7 yards. Never did anything remotely like that before. Only contributing factors, near as I can see, are that the G26 really fits me well, and BE. I still do it, from time to time, for grins. Same skills translated over to pouring ammo through a G34 MOS.
But really, I think it's all water under the bridge, because:
*Everyone knows they're already God's gift to handgunnin', no need to practice nothin'
*Most people that commence to social shootin' have never trained or practiced anything, and yet I'd say way more people survive than don't
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I'm just wondering if it is okay to enjoy handguns, especially N-frames, without caring or wondering about gunfights, self-defense, home defense, or other unlikely events?
Ziggy2525
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Sure, but you probably won't find that in a forum where the specific topic is "Concealed Carry & Self Defense."
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