Customer shoots 2 armed robbers

I am rarely out at night, much less at 0200. I am always armed, I also make a great witness. I would not get into a gunfight unless I thought someone's life was in serious danger. A year or two ago our Academy Sports store was robbed at gunpoint in daylight. All they took was long guns. As they were in the parking lot, an armed citizen drew his weapon. They dropped all of the guns and fled, to be arrested later. Hindsight being 20/20, I think he did exactly the right thing. The man in this story must have felt lives were in danger. It was not just him and two robbers, it was the clerk and several customers to consider.
 
Last edited:
This surprises me about Virginia. I get that rules vary from state to state, but I thought one of common rules from state to state was that the act of threatening someone with a firearm is considered a deadly force attack. You aren't required to put your faith in the generosity of the BG that just threatened you with a gun. In that way the "No one points a gun at me and gets away with it" slogan might have some validity. It's not about defending property. It's about defending yourself or a third party from a deadly force threat with a firearm.

I also think it's odd Virginia would required you to inspect the BG's weapon to verify it's actually a real weapon and not a CO2 gun or a toy replica with the red tip cut off.

I'm not advocating running in to a stop-n-rob like the Lone Ranger, but it would seem like if a BG comes in displaying a pistol, you have no way to divine his intent, so you have a legitimate self defense interest.

In VA, unless things have changed in the last 7 years since I left, if you shoot someone in VA in self defense, it is still an affirmative defense. That means unless the circumstances are very obvious up front, you can expect to be arrested and charged with second degree murder, and then have to apply an affirmative defense to justify the shooting. This is where you can end up arrested and spending five figures on a legal defense for a justifiable shoot. It just depends on the the whims and political agenda of the officer(s) and prosecutor involved.

----

In the shooter's favor, the crime of robbery requires violence or intimidation. Therefore, in most cases using deadly force in self defense to a robbery will be justified. If the assailant used a knife or gun in the robbery, the use of deadly force will likely be justified, presuming the other elements of the defense are met.

Reasonableness is a key element that must be met. The reasonableness that the use of force is justified is assessed, at least theoretically, from the subjective viewpoint of the defendant at the time he acted.

Consequently, a person is justified in using force to repel an unlawful, imminent attack if he or she holds the subjective belief that the force is necessary. That's true even if it is a mistake of fact shooting, where it later turns out that his or her belief was wrong, provided that his belief was reasonable.

Theoretically, even if all of the robbers had pellet guns, the shoot would still be justified if a reasonable person would have believed they were actual firearms.

But, as noted above, if you get the wrong officer/department in a jurisdiction where an anti-gun mayor wants to make an example, you can be arrested and charged. In those same jurisdictions it's also not uncommon for the state's attorney to prosecute, rather than be viewed as soft on crime or pro-gun. Your options then are a plea bargain or what will still likely be a felony with some jail time, or spending a lot of money for a drawn out legal defense taking it to trial.

Put that same shoot in Arlington or Alexandria and the law enforcement response and the ultimate legal outcome may have been significantly different.
 
In looking at this event, I think that we all tend to ask ourselves, what would I have done if that was me. Prior to becoming disabled, my part-time job was as a Sunday newspaper truck driver, and I had to enter stores like this.

Now that I can carry outside of my home state (if I found myself in that situation today) is that whether I got involved was dependent upon how smart the robber was. My feeling would be:
a) robber wearing mask - smart person not intending to kill witnesses
b) robber not wearing mask - intends to leave no living witnesses
c) robber is jittery (whether wearing a mask or not) - someone is going to get hurt
My take on this could be wrong, but that would influence my actions. However, my plan of action would change the moment he/she starts shooting.
 
Not to be funny but I try to make it a practice to stay out of 7-11s at 2 o'clock in the morning. Nothing good happens at 0200 hours that I can think of. However, that said, if you must be out at that hour and you must enter a 7-11 type of business it is best to be prepared.

As someone who made a living working shift work for 30 years and going to/from work at all hours I find this kind of statement sad. There are many who don't have the privilege (or don't want to) of working a day job. Anyone with a sick baby who has had to get supplies during the night is thankful for the places that are open.
 
Just to illustrate how difficult is to predict whether this man will be prosecuted, check out this story about an armed robbery attempt in 2007 in Richmond.

Career felon entered the store with a fake pistol, fled and was shot and killed by the store clerk. Several shots fired by the clerk inside the store, many more as he chased the suspect OUTSIDE the store while the robber was running away.

Grand jury declined to indict the clerk on any charge.

Robber's killer avoids charge | News | richmond.com
 
I thought the article I linked to concerning the 2007 shooting in Richmond might prompt some more discussion of the recent shooting in a 7-11 in Virginia Beach but I guess folks have moved on.

By the way, I see no updated news reports on the incident, so it appears the authorities are still investigating.

By no means did I mean to imply that the 2007 shooting by the ice cream store manager was completely justified, I just wanted to show that you never know what the aftermath of a citizen involved shooting death will bring.

Most folks I talked with at the time thought the ice cream store manager should have been charged with a crime, after all, he continued to pursue and fire at the robber after he (the manager) was no longer in danger. I was surprised that the grand jury refused to indict him.

Read the article if you have time. Seems to me it has lessons about what NOT to do after a suspect has fled. Here's the link again:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/redire...cle_79708249-3b6f-5fda-b29c-be1de2fc7edb.html
 
In VA, unless things have changed in the last 7 years since I left, if you shoot someone in VA in self defense, it is still an affirmative defense. That means unless the circumstances are very obvious up front, you can expect to be arrested and charged with second degree murder, and then have to apply an affirmative defense to justify the shooting. This is where you can end up arrested and spending five figures on a legal defense for a justifiable shoot. It just depends on the the whims and political agenda of the officer(s) and prosecutor involved.

----

In the shooter's favor, the crime of robbery requires violence or intimidation. Therefore, in most cases using deadly force in self defense to a robbery will be justified. If the assailant used a knife or gun in the robbery, the use of deadly force will likely be justified, presuming the other elements of the defense are met.

Reasonableness is a key element that must be met. The reasonableness that the use of force is justified is assessed, at least theoretically, from the subjective viewpoint of the defendant at the time he acted.

Consequently, a person is justified in using force to repel an unlawful, imminent attack if he or she holds the subjective belief that the force is necessary. That's true even if it is a mistake of fact shooting, where it later turns out that his or her belief was wrong, provided that his belief was reasonable.

Theoretically, even if all of the robbers had pellet guns, the shoot would still be justified if a reasonable person would have believed they were actual firearms.

But, as noted above, if you get the wrong officer/department in a jurisdiction where an anti-gun mayor wants to make an example, you can be arrested and charged. In those same jurisdictions it's also not uncommon for the state's attorney to prosecute, rather than be viewed as soft on crime or pro-gun. Your options then are a plea bargain or what will still likely be a felony with some jail time, or spending a lot of money for a drawn out legal defense taking it to trial.

Put that same shoot in Arlington or Alexandria and the law enforcement response and the ultimate legal outcome may have been significantly different.

Location Location Location
 
Hard to know what happened without being there, or what you would do in that situation.

Personally I would be very hesitant to open fire on a garden variety robber wearing a mask at a gas station. They just want a quick buck. My grandmother worked at the same grocery store for years. It got held up sometimes. She said she couldn't hand over that money soon enough; it wasn't her money! I would be paranoid to engage the guy for fear of him flinching and touching off a round into the cashier. What a mess and the potential for years of legal battles and financial ruin.

No mask? A different situation and mentality.
Home invasion at your place or that pretty neighbor's house? COMPLETELY different story and agenda!
 
I thought the article I linked to concerning the 2007 shooting in Richmond might prompt some more discussion of the recent shooting in a 7-11 in Virginia Beach but I guess folks have moved on.

By the way, I see no updated news reports on the incident, so it appears the authorities are still investigating.

By no means did I mean to imply that the 2007 shooting by the ice cream store manager was completely justified, I just wanted to show that you never know what the aftermath of a citizen involved shooting death will bring.

Most folks I talked with at the time thought the ice cream store manager should have been charged with a crime, after all, he continued to pursue and fire at the robber after he (the manager) was no longer in danger. I was surprised that the grand jury refused to indict him.

Read the article if you have time. Seems to me it has lessons about what NOT to do after a suspect has fled. Here's the link again:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/redire...cle_79708249-3b6f-5fda-b29c-be1de2fc7edb.html


I suspect that the reason the grand jury refused to indict the store manager was that the deceased was a career felon.
 
A case near me some time ago... a guy got into it with a neighbor, neighbor assulted him at his front door... both men tumbling down a half flight split level stairs. Guy draws a ppk/s and fires at neighbor as neighbor turns and runs out of guys's house. Guy follows him into the street and fires again, striking neighbor who dies. The guy claims self defense, is convicted anyway and sent to state prison.

I see so many cases... where defender carries it into the street while perp is fleeing. I feel that taking up a cover position to make sure perp is gone, renderng first aid to any injured, calling 9-1-1 is the correct action.
 
I believe that under NO circumstances....

A case near me some time ago... a guy got into it with a neighbor, neighbor assulted him at his front door... both men tumbling down a half flight split level stairs. Guy draws a ppk/s and fires at neighbor as neighbor turns and runs out of guys's house. Guy follows him into the street and fires again, striking neighbor who dies. The guy claims self defense, is convicted anyway and sent to state prison.

I see so many cases... where defender carries it into the street while perp is fleeing. I feel that taking up a cover position to make sure perp is gone, renderng first aid to any injured, calling 9-1-1 is the correct action.

...should you chase somebody out into the open and fire down the street after them.
 
Well, if they're carrying my kid or heading up my driveway to my car . . .



One of the problems with "never . . . "



In my state you can't use deadly force to defend property. And I wouldn't want to anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Latest posts

Back
Top