460 S&W Measuring Up

[tumbleturn]

I have a Performance center 460 with a 10 3/8s length barrel. The cylinder gap is .009. I cannot get anywhere near anybody’s posted velocities except maybe Hornadys reloading Data. When clean I can push a 300gr Hornady XTP Mag bullet through all the throats in the cylinder fairly easy with a wood dowel. I even bought some Loaded 360gr WLNGC from Grizzly claiming 1850fps on the box and they clocked in at only 1625fps average. All the loading Data I get I cannot get anywhere near the velocitys. In fact when working up some loads I can go way past posted max loads by 10 to 20 percent with no pressure signs and still not be anywhere near stated velocities. And when I do start to have slightly sticking cases still nowhere near posted velocities. My Goal is to shoot 300gr and heavier. Now I have one load that is at least acceptable But with a lighter bullet. The load is a Lee 230gr lead cast bullet that is meant for the 45acp. I powder coat the bullets with powder by the pound black coating. Seated at COAL of 2.260 with a lee factory crimp over 52.0grs of H110 ignited by a Winchester Large rifle Mag Primer and starline brass. I am getting around 2150fps the accuracy is not what I want but 1.25 inches at 25yds should be good for plinking and practice. I am hoping to push 300gr jacket bullets or 325 Lyman gas checked to at least 1900fps but I seem to be running into a road block at 1700fps. Which is in line with my Hornady manual. But everybody else’s data is claiming over 1900fps. Also with a lot of powders I can start at whatever the suggested starting load is and start adding powder and the velocity does not really change. Just an example with the Hornady 300gr I started with 33.0gr of Enforcer at 1605fps which is faster than the Hornady book claims by the time I got to 38.0grs I was up to only 1667fps it seemed to max out with pressure signs at 41grs with not much of a speed increase. Any Ideas? Also what are the real world velocities others are getting from there 460 X frames?
Thank You Mike
P.S.
I have a small trailer with a small reloading bench in it that I tow out to the Nevada dessert to do my load development. So I can try things one round at a time. Don’t get me started on Quickload it is a major disappointment.

 

[ruggyh]

Your BC is on the open side but don't think it going to make 200+ reduction in velocity.

How have you determined your chrono is reading correctly?

What does 200 FTX produce out of your gun?

While shooting heavier lead bullets is fun it is not necessary for most applications.

What are you planning to shoot where yo feel you need peek velocity with this weight bullet?

be safe
Ruggy

 

[ruggyh]

as to test data for 460S&W see this thread

460 S&W: Velocity / Barrel Length

be safe
Ruggy

 

[JayFramer]

Your cylinder gap is well within S&W’s NEW tolerance window.

Sorry, but they won’t help you if you complain to them about it.

 

[tumbleturn]

as to test data for 460S&W see this thread

460 S&W: Velocity / Barrel Length

be safe
Ruggy

Thanks for the link Ruggy. His loads with the 300gr bullet and H110 were just as doggy as mine. I have used 4 different chronographs even lined up a couple of them to use 2 at one time. Biggest difference was 7fps. I would like to find where just an average Joe like me is getting the velocities like the powder manufacturers and Lyman are claiming or is it just a fantasy. As for the lighter bullets I just dont have any use for them other than plinking maybe. Basically I bought a big gun to shoot big bullets. I already have smaller guns to shoot smaller bullets. I do plan on taking it out at distance. My first goal is beating up on my 1000yrd steel plate and if that works I figure if Billy Dixon in 1874 can borrow a 50-90 and make a shot out over 1500yds then I should be able to take this out to a mile. I have a 144 Miliradian M.O.A.B mount coming from Cold Shot. According to the math I may not have enough adjustment with 300gr bullets only leaving at 1700fps to make it to a mile. I am addicted to distance shots. I still get a charge out of a first shot of the day using my 30-06 and getting a 1.02 mile hit on my IPSC plate. My father is beating up on our 18X24 1000yd plate with his contender in 223. An to think he is 87 years old. I hope that answers your question why big bullets.
Yes JayFramer my gun is within Smith and Wesson's large tolerances. But it is a performance center I expected it to be closer to the Minimum then Maximum. I have never owned a revolver with as large a cylinder gap.
Me and a 460 using supposedly 300gr full power loads before I bought mine.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGTzkqxq4bI[/ame]

Mike

 

[gwpercle]

Lyman got it's data not with a revolver but with a Universal Receiver with a 10 inch long barrel .
A revolver with 2 inch less barrel will give less fps just no way to get around it . When comparing data in manuals they usually give the firearm used to derive it .

Hornady Handbook #8 states the firearm was S&W 460XVR , 8 3/8" barrel . That data might be more closely correct for use in your gun .

Gary

 

[ruggyh]

Thanks for the link Ruggy. His loads with the 300gr bullet and H110 were just as doggy as mine. ... Mike

Mike

The load in the 460 velocity / barrel length post for the 300grain XTP MAG are just above minimum load level.

You did not metion which 300 grain Hornady you were.

The standard XTP is not suitable for 460 pressures use the XTP MAG.

Read the complete thread and there is more discussion on the 300 XTP mag.

I have run the 300 XTP MAG well past 1700 fps with H110 out of your barrel length gun.

Try using Lil'Gun if your going to running the bigger bullets.

As a side note the BC of the heavy 460 bullets are very poor.
I would suggest 275 grain Barnes XBP as a better solution.

be safe
Ruggy

 

[tumbleturn]

Ruggy I did read the hole thread. After my last post I did read it all and realized you where the one posting Data. As I recall You said you have gotten 300gr to 1800 with pressure signs I dont recall which powder. The 4 heavy Bullets I am using Hornady 300gr XTP-Mag Speer 300gr DeepCurl Lymans 325gr Gas Check and Lees 300 grain Gas Check. Both the gas Checks with and without Gas Checks For the record I prefer them without gas checks. I have some Hornady 250gr FTX with a BC inline with heaver bullets I will be giving a try if the weather ever permits. The best I have done with the 300gr is with CFE BLK using Remington Mag primers. I did pickup 50fps with the Remingtons primers over the Winchesters I started with both LR Mag. The 3 Large rifle mag primers I have tried are Winchester, Federal, and Remington. Here is the powders I have tried CFE BLK, BlueDot, IMR 4227, IMR 4198, 1680, LILGun, Enforcer, 300-MP, Re7, And H110/296. I found a can of 30 year old 2400 in the back of my powder stash if the weather ever improves here in Nevada I will be out in the dessert giving it a try. As for the H110/296 the 296 has been following me around since the early 80s. So I decided to update only H110 was available but According to Hodgdon they are the same. I got the same exact disappointing results with the new H110 as I was getting with the early 80s 296. With H110/296 I cant get much over 1600fps. I am convinced the .009 cylinder gap is robbing me of speed just noway to prove it or by how much. Keep in mind as I increase powder charges a lot of the powders especially H110/296 show little or no speed increases and that is with a 4 or 5 grain increase. I did find somewhere on the net somebody did a test with no cylinder gap, .001 and .006 cylinder gap. It would have been nice if they went with a larger cylinder gap also. There was Velocity loss between the .001 and .006. Years ago I had a Dan Wesson with 4 different Barrels. I wish I still had it I would be able to do tests with cylinder gap to see the difference.
Yes gwpercle I agree with you the universal receiver that Lyman uses is nothing like my Revolver. And my Hornady #10 is also using a XVR with an 8 inch barrel. And yes my speeds are in Line with the Hornady book. But everything I have read especially the early stuff when Smith first came out with this invention has the 300gr bullets leaving at over 1900fps out of a revolver. I am just yet again disappointed in a Smith and Wesson hand gun. Even after S&W sent me a new hammer spring I still get light primer strikes so I have modified it so now it seems to ignite every time I pull the trigger.
Mike

 

[ruggyh]

Of all the canister powder, Lil'Gun is going to produce the highest velocity with bull over 260 grains.

I have pressure tested A9, 2400, Enforcer, 1680, 5744, N110, N105, H110, Lil'Gun, 4227,4198, RL7, and some of the faster powder. In general faster powders should be avoided and velocity be lower than those listed above if you stay within the designed pressure.

Compressed loads of Lil'Gun all resulted in reduced velocity.

Sticky cartridge is the best indication of reaching max pressure.
Cases become sticky at 62KPSI range.

Most consistent primers in my test are Winchester LRP with the exception of 4227 and slower powders which seem to like Federal 215.

If you are going to shoot lead at 460 pressures you will need gas checks.

The cylinder gap does make difference but as cartridge pressure increase the velocity losses become smaller. In other words 45 APC would see a much higher parentage of drop off than 44 Magnum which would see a much higher percentage than your 460.

Some of the 10.5" have been found to have tight throats. This means you will not be able to load as high of volume to reach pk pressure. This results is a reduction of velocity.

If you are near Carson you might want to have Jack Huntington look at your revolver.

I would also slug the barrel just to make sure there is something that is not visually evident.

be safe
Ruggy

 

[tumbleturn]

Ruggy when the weather gets better I will give LiLGun another try with the 300gr XTE Mags and the Deepcurls. I may not have given it enough of a chance. My notes say I got sticky extraction with the 300gr XTE Mag bullet over 39gr LiLGun WLR Mag primers 1600fps. But H110, IMR 2227, 1680, CFE BLK even Enforcer Produced better velocity's. Maybe the gun was a little dirty and I had faulty reading on the extraction maybe the gun was dirty when it seemed to max out. I have been avoiding LiLGun a bit because I am reading people are claiming excessive throat erosion in the 460. As for the gas checks I have been powder coating my cast bullets now for about 10 years and since then I have not had any leading issues. Only time I had a problem was when I pushed the LEE 230gr out of my 30-06 over 2200fps basically accuracy and stability whet away fast. As for the 460 I Have pushed the 325 gr Lyman till the cases stick without gas checks and the speed is faster than with the gas checks and there is no accuracy difference.
I am near Carson but the only Jack Huntington gunsmith I can find is in Grass Valley Ca.
Mike

 

[ruggyh]

Jack is here JRH Advanced Gunsmithing

If Lil'Gun is compressed it behaves poorly make sure your not over 100% case fill

Lil"GUN will cause erosion when used with lite for caliber bullets . I have had no issue with it in 460 with 300 grain and heavier Bullets. It so heat up your gun faster but that is a trade of for increased velocity

be safe
Ruggy

 

[tumbleturn]

Hey Ruggy. I called and went by the gunsmith in Carson you suggested I have yet to get a hold of him. While in Carson I talked to another gunsmith and he was of no use to me. Today I was staring at my 460 and the next thing I knew the Frame,Barrel shroud, and brake were in separate areas of the bench. Then within another 5 minutes I had a tight .005 cylinder gap. Then a half hour later I was out in the Nevada dessert running 3 360gr Grizzly loads through my chronograph. When I ran 3 though the chronograph several weeks ago with the .009 cylinder gap the fastest one was 1629fps 10 feet from the chronograph. Today 10 feet from the Chronograph the slowest one was 1708fps. That performance center cylinder gap was robing me of horse power.
Also you might want to give CFE BLK a try on the heavier bullets. The fastest I could get a 300gr bullet with the .009 cylinder gap was was just under 1800fps with 52.5grains under the Lee 300gr gas check bullet powder coated without the gas check with Winchester LRM primer. it was also the most accurate with all the rounds touching at just over 25yds. I also had the Deepcurl 300gr touching at just over 25yds with 51.0 grains of CFE BLK right around 1700fps. It will be interesting to see the speed increase with the .005 gap and if I lose my accuracy with those loads.
If not for how light the recommended torque is on my 30-06 savage Axis Bolt rifle with a carbon six barrel and its sub 1\2 minute accuracy. I would have thought the torque needed to get the brake off would have been way too light.
Mike