anyone here collect pre 1890 german austrian shotguns

[ky wonder]

today I picked up an estate gun its a 16 gauge under lever, round action, 5 wire Damascus, hammer dbl. brl

straight checkered stock, splinter forearm held on by brass wedge, elaborate trigger guard, {steel, brass, horn}, deep engraving, with 6 relief engraved panels of animals fox, quail, stag, bird dog, hare, and a deer, very elegent receiver, , like none I have ever seen before, with back lock action

gun was a GI bring back from ww1, according to 72 y.o. deceased lady who had put a paper in barrel describing her grandfather's acquisition of said gun while serving in the war

the gun is a true piece of art, still locks up tight, but does have some bore issues due to non cleaning, and black powder usage

the gun was used enough to wear the checkering very thin, some of the animal panels are worn in normal carrying spots.

the gun is only marked in 3 places, no name, serial number 399 over a acorn, on the left barrel, the rib at breach and on the water table, no proof marks so it is not British or Belgium, who has been proofing guns since the 1600s, the Germanic country's , Germany, Austria, Yugoslavia did not start proofing guns until 1892,
I wish I could figure out how to post pics now, but at this time I cant

my hope is that some one here, might have some knowledge on the acorn mark?

if anyone has a interest pm me and I will send photos

thanks

 

[Rudi]

Sounds like a fantastic piece! Posting pics is not hard, if I can do it you can. Go to manage attachments, then go from there.

 

[ky wonder]

Here goes pic attemt

 

[ky wonder]

Sounds like a fantastic piece! Posting pics is not hard, if I can do it you can. Go to manage attachments, then go from there.

figured it out

 

[Rpg]

Beautiful gun!

I’d love more photos, particularly of the whole gun and the Damascus barrels. Those would help identify the gun.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

Nice find.

I don't collect them, but I've seen some spectacular ones in Austria and some of the former Austro-Hungarian lands while hunting and touring museums.

Once while staying in a small village in the Voralps (pre Alps) in Styria, the Jagdmeister (game keeper) showed me his collection of doubles and drillings. He asked me not to say anything as he had more than the law allowed. They were just spectacular.

 

[Fishinfool]

I don't collect them either, but I did once owned one similar. A double underlever hammer gun. At some point if not originally Damascus steel, someone fitted it with 16 ga Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Lots of silver and gold wire inlays. Carved horn trigger guard / grip. Found an old pic from some recent scans.

Larry

 

[ky wonder]

Beautiful gun!

I’d love more photos, particularly of the whole gun and the Damascus barrels. Those would help identify the gun.

Il get it out in the sun later today

 

[ky wonder]

Damascus pattern

 

[Gene L]

The elaborate trigger guard looks like a Flobert. Wherever that was made.

 

[2152hq]

The action style using the side swing underlever on the forend is commonly called a "lefaucheux ' action.
The original is a French design and was used more often with pin-fire cartridges.

Some Germans and some Austrian makers adopted the action design. A large number of Belgian makers did as well.

Probably the most commonly seen German maker IMO using this style action was Wilhelm Collath & Sons in Frankfort.
Wm Collath took over another company that also used the system ,,Geo Teschner (sp?). Wm Collath having been an employee of Teschner's originally.

They used the system for SxS , O/U and Drillings.

A number of the Swedish Huskvarna (sp?) SxS shotguns imported into the USA a few yrs back were built on the same style action.
Very strong action. MAny find it a bit clumsy to use at first but with a little use it becomes quite easy to handle

There may be more markings incl proof, bore size, ect on the under side of the bbl and on the bbl flats if the bbls haven't been taken off yet. Removing the bbls from the action will reveal that,or not. The forend often stays attached to the frame on these and the bbls alone detach, but not always!.
Some have a small detent pin at the end of the forend that needs to be depressed to allow the forend to be detached. Then the bbls drop off when opened much as any SxS.

The engraving looks much like the standard panel engraving done on a number of SxS Collaths I've seen. But since much of this type of work was done out of shop, the engravers often just did a standard layout no matter who's mfg it was.

Makers name vs a retailers name vs no name.
There really is no such thing as a 'Guild Gun'
There was before WW2 no law in Germany that demanded a gun mfg'r place their name or any name for that matter on a firearm that they mfg'rd.

Guns could be simply ordered with a Retailers name on them and no mfg'rs name. Sometimes the mfg'rs 'name' was simply a small stamp/mark indicating the maker.
Some were made and shipped to retailers and customers w/o any name on them. They were done so at the retailers request. The guns were usually marked/engraved by the retailer with their name, sometimes a model or moniker, after delivery and before sale.
Some never got marked.

 

[Philbert4]

You might also check over at doublegunshop.com Double Guns, Double barreled shotguns, SxS, or Side-by-side, and Over & Under O&U, Drillings, Combination guns, Double rifles, Hunting Guns, Game guns, English shotguns, DoubleGuns!.

 

[ky wonder]

The action style using the side swing underlever on the forend is commonly called a "lefaucheux ' action.
The original is a French design and was used more often with pin-fire cartridges.

Some Germans and some Austrian makers adopted the action design. A large number of Belgian makers did as well.

Probably the most commonly seen German maker IMO using this style action was Wilhelm Collath & Sons in Frankfort.
Wm Collath took over another company that also used the system ,,Geo Teschner (sp?). Wm Collath having been an employee of Teschner's originally.

They used the system for SxS , O/U and Drillings.

A number of the Swedish Huskvarna (sp?) SxS shotguns imported into the USA a few yrs back were built on the same style action.
Very strong action. MAny find it a bit clumsy to use at first but with a little use it becomes quite easy to handle

There may be more markings incl proof, bore size, ect on the under side of the bbl and on the bbl flats if the bbls haven't been taken off yet. Removing the bbls from the action will reveal that,or not. The forend often stays attached to the frame on these and the bbls alone detach, but not always!.
Some have a small detent pin at the end of the forend that needs to be depressed to allow the forend to be detached. Then the bbls drop off when opened much as any SxS.

The engraving looks much like the standard panel engraving done on a number of SxS Collaths I've seen. But since much of this type of work was done out of shop, the engravers often just did a standard layout no matter who's mfg it was.

Makers name vs a retailers name vs no name.
There really is no such thing as a 'Guild Gun'
There was before WW2 no law in Germany that demanded a gun mfg'r place their name or any name for that matter on a firearm that they mfg'rd.

Guns could be simply ordered with a Retailers name on them and no mfg'rs name. Sometimes the mfg'rs 'name' was simply a small stamp/mark indicating the maker.
Some were made and shipped to retailers and customers w/o any name on them. They were done so at the retailers request. The guns were usually marked/engraved by the retailer with their name, sometimes a model or moniker, after delivery and before sale.
Some never got marked.

Finally got around to taking it apart, no marks on what we would. All barrel flats, or barrels only Mark's are at beach in of barrel right hand barrel has what looks like a stylized L, left brl has a similar mark see photos for damascus pattern and marks
Firearm is pinned to frame
Thanks for your responce

 

[2152hq]

I'd hazzard a guess that the gun is pre 1891 (92?).

It was then that both Germany and Austria put into place a Gov't demanded firearms proof system.

Guns made before that date and already in circulation were supposed to be brought forward and voluntarily surrendered for Gov't proofing.
But many were not.
Any of the pre-1891/2 mfg'd guns in a retailers hands had to be proofed before they cold be then sold.

These early mfg guns got only a Crown/V marking when they were then proofed in Germany, not the full compliment of markes the new proof law demanded.
I don't recall what the Austrians did for marking the pre 1891 mfg guns when they came in to be proofed.

Belgium proof laws go back to at least the 1850's.

One possibility on that 'L' is that Belgium used a capital L but more of a stylized look as a proof mark on bbls in the rough bored state to indicate they had passed a 'provisional proof'.
This mark they started using in the mid 1800's and forward.

This was done to see if the rough bored but still unfinished tubes were strong and didn't hide any obvious flaws.
Catch such things early with this Provisional test before investing the time and labor into turning them into the finished product.

Belgium was, in the 1800's and into the 1900's, the primary source of Damascus and Twist steel firearms barrels in the world.
England was second.
The Belgian bbl trade made them for both their own domestic gun mfg industry which was huge, and for export around the world. The tubes were sold in unfinished and finished state.

A German or Austrian w/a damascus bbl will not uncommonly have the bbl sourced from Belgium and finished in Germany/Austria.
The US shotgun makers used primarily Belgian damascaus bbl's. The higher grade guns using English made damascus.

I think you have a pre 1891 (pre-Gov't Proof) German or Austrian firearm.
The gun used Belgian produced Damascus bbls that were sent to the maker in the rough state w/a Belgian provisional proof done to them.
If that 'L' is in fact the Belgian Provisional Bbl proof...

If the gun had been entirely made/produced in Belgium, the entire gun would have been proofed with their array of provisional and final proof marks. They were in use in Belgium years before the 1891 Proof laws went into effect in Germany/Austria.

The under lugs on the bbl set look like they may be a little tweaked from closing the gun with perhaps the lever also in the closed position.
Maybe just the pic.

It's a common trait of this style action design that the forend remains pinned/attached to the frame when the bbl set is removed.
You can remove the forend by removing the hinge pin from the action and separating the two.
Sometimes there's a small set screw in place to hold the pin secured as well as a well fitted assembly. A hammer and punch is almost always necessary to drive the pin out and sometimes they are tapered. So the direction you drive it is important.

No real need to take the two apart unless some sort of repair is necessary.
Many of these actions show some attempt to disassemble the forend from the frame. Battering on the end of the hinge pin, ect.
Add that to twisting the slots on the screws I guess.

 

[Ray]

Not to hijack but my old man´s 1913 made Sauer & Sohn SXS 24 gauge shotgun has this writing on the barrel : Fluss Stahl or Fluid Steel as mentioned by Fishinfool.
I just wanted to know what this term is all about.
Thanks, Regards, Ray

 

[2152hq]

Re: Fluid Steel,,Fluid Compressed Steel

Here's an article in a Russian Hunting Magazine from a few yrs back.
It's in English language. Easy to read with drawings and pics.

A very good read about Joseph Whitworth, the Englishman who patented Fluid Compressed Steel mfg , and how and why it came to be in the later 19th century.

Very interesting article and you can jump around thru the sub-topics easily.

In a nutshell,,Fluid Steel / Fluid Compressed Steel is a process of making either parts or just shaped billets by using hydraulic press pressure to compress steel alloy at or near its melting point in a die or mould.

The shaped billet is where the gun bbl mfg comes in.
Steel bbls up to that time were made of poured cast steel which had the tendency to have porosity, or other inclusions.
The Whitworth process removed that problem.
He first needed a source of better quality 'steel',,,that's part of the story as well.


The Beginning of the Steel Age. << Охотничье оружие Hunting Gun

 

[Ray]

Thanks for the answer, regards, Ray