It only took from 1902 until 2021....maybe they'll switch to .30-40 Krag for their new sniper round! LOL
My old PD, now on the 9mm bandwagon....
- Thread starter Old Corp
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It only took from 1902 until 2021....maybe they'll switch to .30-40 Krag for their new sniper round! LOL
LVSteve
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My view is that the blame for the "snappy" reputation of 40 S&W lies with the Glock 23. A buddy had one and I found it whippy, and running through a magazine quickly left my hand vibrating.
HardToHandle
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I concur.
My agency was an early .40S&W adopter, straight from .357. No appreciable issues in the 404X series, but when us young whippersnappers wanted to shave off a pound with Glocks, the Gen 3 G23s were abusive. The Glocks were, however, a huge step up in firepower for plainclothes officers. Not long after that, Smith discontinued the 404X series.
There also were the difficult to track weapon light issues on the G22s a few years later. I believe that eventually attributed to harmonics due to the .40S&W recoil impulse, which led to a frame change. These didn't happen in 9mm or .357 Sig utilizing the same frame. Another strike against the .40S&W.
The agency began to allow 9mm a decade or so ago. Effectively every street officer converted as soon as possible - more rounds, less recoil, and as the ammo demos proved, no difference. Locally, only a few podunk agencies and State Troopers use .40S&W now - cost likely plays some part, but also why have big boom issues.
Nearly all the new pistol platforms in the last five years don't bother to build a .40 S&W model. It is a cartridge on its way out.
cowboy4evr
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The 40 S&W has been referred to as " short and weak " , mostly by the 10mm crowd . Yet the 10mm is " short and weak " compared to the 41 magnum . Regards Paul
sw44spl
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All my 20 years I have carried 40 S&W. But Charlotte Police are going to a 9mm soon maybe this fall. I bet with in a year or two my dept will move to a 9mm. I shoot my Glock 27 for off duty. I don't have not one issue with snappy recoil or sore wrist. I may be immune to it from all the 44mags I have fired from my 44s. The old 9mm has been in many wars and has done well. I have many I shoot and love them also. Now is the time to get a 40S&W the police turn ins are cheap.
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max503
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If I was a cop I would want a 9mm that holds a lot of boolits as opposed to something bigger, caliber wise.
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I can't disagree with much of what you wrote. BUT, there was absolutely no reason for an otherwise truthful individual, respected in their field, to invent things. Remember, he's dealing with complaints & injury claims, he's not a mind reader. And, as they say, perception is reality. The markedly lower scores were also a reality.
I don't recall which handguns were involved. I expect that at least some of the whines were due to lower scores and the search for an excuse. Remember, not all LEOs are gun people and a lack of enthusiasm about firearms training isn't unusual. I can still remember the comments from some NFL lineman size folks about shotgun qualification.
We went from the S&W 1006 first, with full power 10 mm and later to the FBI load due to ammo shortages. Due to an inability to get 10 mm of any type in the quantities we needed, we ended up adopting the M&P40 1.0. as a very early purchaser. We really wanted the M&P9, but there was no known production date and a couple of very large standing orders for the first stuff off the line. I didn't find the recoil of the much lighter M&P to be an issue, but I'm a shooter. I also found I didn't shoot the lighter gun as well. I shoot the M&P9 much better.
And, a whole lot depends upon training. Remember the stat that you lose 20% of capability for every month where you don't train. Training, isn't popping off a few rounds.
A gunshy sergeant I supervised described his issue 9mm 5906 as 'hot' as compared to his Model 19 357. He'd been a gunfight 'winner' (he wasn't killed but was wounded and more seriously wounded his assailant, stopping the fight - EMS took half an hour to get there) using his 357 with a guy who shot him with a 38. He likely should have been put in some other job afterward. 'Hot' and 'snappy' are subjective, individualized terms.
A 40 offers more frontal area and bullet weight than a 9mm, better penetration than a 45 in a better type of weapon than a revolver. Not bad qualities, and the hundreds of police shootings using the 40 provide quite adequate data for comparison (if you wish such).
The caliber hyperbole gets old.
A 40 offers more frontal area and bullet weight than a 9mm, better penetration than a 45 in a better type of weapon than a revolver. Not bad qualities, and the hundreds of police shootings using the 40 provide quite adequate data for comparison (if you wish such).
The caliber hyperbole gets old.
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Echo40
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Perhaps, but only because folks were likely comparing it directly to heavier firearms, which is needless to say, an unfair comparison. Compared to a G19, the recoil of a G23 is nothing to write home about, but my guess is that the G23 was most likely being compared to S&W Model 10 Revolvers or 5906 Pistols, which are heavier, all-steel guns which dampen the recoil impulse quite substantially.
As previously stated, (and you can look it up yourself) between firearms of equal weight, then difference in felt recoil in terms of kinetic energy foot-lbs is between 2-3ft-lbs. Certainly a noticeable difference, but not huge one.
I honestly have to wonder how much perceptions of .40cal recoil are influenced by user expectation, folks flinching due to anticipation rather than how much the round actually kicks.
As someone with medium-sized hands and claw-like fingers, and the first .40cal pistol I ever shot being the SW40VE (a clone of the G23) I personally don't feel that the .40 S&W's "snappy" recoil lives up to the hype. Yes, it's snappy out of my M&P40 Shield, but even so, my .380 ACP Walther PPK/S is honestly more snappy.
Faulkner
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I'll just have to roll my eyes at the .40 being snappy hype. Just yesterday I was shooting my Gen 3 G23 alongside my Gen 5 G19. If'n I'd closed my eyes I bet I could hardly tell the difference in the two except my G23 has finger grooves.
I've been training LEOs to shoot .40's for nearly 20 years. The very few that complained about the .40 being too much to handle typically had other gun handling issues. Funny thing, I don't recall ever having had a female officer complain about it and I've worked with some at barely over 5 ft and 120 lbs.
If you want to feel snappy, I agree wholeheartedly with Forte Smitten Wesson, try a Walther PPK/s in .380, or even a S&W 442 in .38 Special.
I've been training LEOs to shoot .40's for nearly 20 years. The very few that complained about the .40 being too much to handle typically had other gun handling issues. Funny thing, I don't recall ever having had a female officer complain about it and I've worked with some at barely over 5 ft and 120 lbs.
If you want to feel snappy, I agree wholeheartedly with Forte Smitten Wesson, try a Walther PPK/s in .380, or even a S&W 442 in .38 Special.
OP
Old Corp
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Here I was, just waiting for a global resurgence of popularity for the .45 GAP.
Had the same experiences training recruits with the Glock 22.
'Snappy' is a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog with factory ammo.
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NovaJoe
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I'm not an LEO, but use primarily Glock 9mms (17, 19, 23, 43). I like to keep a 40 around (currently a G5 22) because in this era of ammo shortages, sometimes .40 S&W can be had when 9mm cannot.
I had a Glock 23 for a few years. Nothing really wrong with it, I just didn't enjoy shooting it. Sold it and bought an M&P9c. Which I ended up hating because it felt "clunky." Sold that, and bought a 6906. Still have that.
Cal44
Member
All the talk about PDs dropping 40sw pistols presents an opportunity to pick up a 40 s&w pistol or two at bargain prices.
I recently bought a Glock 27 and a Kahr pm40.
I'd really like to find a Smith CS40. I like 3rd gen pistols and a CS40 would be my first choice if I can ever find one.
I even scored three CS40 brand new magazines for $10 each. Now I need the pistol to go with my mags.
I recently bought a Glock 27 and a Kahr pm40.
I'd really like to find a Smith CS40. I like 3rd gen pistols and a CS40 would be my first choice if I can ever find one.
I even scored three CS40 brand new magazines for $10 each. Now I need the pistol to go with my mags.
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People suffer hand and wrist injuries from using keyboards, mice, and all sorts of other things. It's not at all unbelievable.
In the not distant pass LEO went from 9mm, to .40 S&W, to .45acp.
Now the trend has began again back to 9mm
Now the trend has began again back to 9mm
LVSteve
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While it's impossible to argue the physics and the numbers, recoil is all about personal perception. For example, I have come to dislike the LC9s because "something" in the recoil impulse disturbs me. A Kahr CW9 weighs about the same (or less?) and doesn't bother me at all.
My wife says the LC9s doesn't bother her, but the one time she shot a Star BM she hated it. Go figure, because in my hands it recoils only slightly more than the Star B Super. The B Super was the first 9mm she ever fired and she had no trouble whatsoever. YMMV applies in large doses, it seems.
As for blowback .380s, I find them all pretty nasty, even the bigger Beretta models. Once you've fired a reasonably sized or weighted locked breech 380, you realize just how much more the blowback guns kick and especially flip.
Echo40
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As a Writer, Data Entry Operator, and PC Gamer who spends more time working with keyboards, mice, and touch screens than the average person, I cannot help but wonder precisely how one who possesses otherwise healthy hands/wrists manages to injure themselves by means of simple operation of the aforementioned devices.
As previously stated, I understand, accept, and acknowledge that felt recoil is highly subjective, what I question is that trained Law Enforcement officers who lack existing medical conditions which effect the strength of their hands/wrists sustained injuries which were apparently serious enough to warrant mention by a trainer in an online forum and used as a knock against the .40 S&W cartridge.
I don't question that there are those who find the recoil impulse of the .40 S&W cartridge objectionable, I question that recoil impulse of the .40 S&W cartridge is strong enough to result in hand/wrist injuries, particularly injuries severe enough to be used in an argument in favor of transitioning away from the cartridge.
Where does one go to get cheap .40 S&W police trade-ins? Are there multiple dealers or does the LPDept. sell them? I'm kinda thinking on one as it would be one more gun I own that I presently can't find ammo for.
I'm serious for once. I've never seen any PD trade-ins except for the 3 Berettas I got from Italy agencies, through DK sports in VA.
I'm serious for once. I've never seen any PD trade-ins except for the 3 Berettas I got from Italy agencies, through DK sports in VA.
