Has it been modified?

[Hondo44]

Guy,

Thank you for the heads up. I will edit my post: I meant to say no TLs reported in my study in the 1st and 2nd groups that the OP's could be in were cal marked.

See my study here and go to post #223 for the database info, page 5:

.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

Your TL must be in the 4th group. Do you see your serial # listed?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Yes, it is there. I reported it to you in your research.

 

[Turnagain]

Hondo44,
Full SN is 1616. Yep, the lanyard ring obscures the SN and it's now located on the left of the grip frame.


"3. Some in both groups were sold to the public.

The 1600 range serial #s in the first group that went to the British are: #s 1600, 1615, 1616, 1617, 1657, 1662, 1673.
NOTE: These guns in the first group will often have factory added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock."



My TL has no British (or any other) proof marks that I can find. So, is it a .44 factory converted to .455 that was sold commercially in the US and further converted to .45 by the unknown gunsmith?


Thanks to all for the knowledgeable and informative answers. I'm not a collector, just have some guns I've bought over the years and the TL is one of them.

 

[Hondo44]

Bravo! Well you have a very interesting TL!

Listed in those sold to the British but no marks; the letter might be very interesting!

If it made it out of England thru irregular channels back to the USA, it won't have export and proofing stamps which are more numerous than the military stamps.

The first thing I'd do is examine it closely with magnification in the locations where the military marks would be. It may have been refinished and the marks removed. Does it look refinished?

 

[Turnagain]

There seems to be a cobbled effort to refinish the barrel which left it mostly in the white. I thought that the rest of the frame had been refinished, it's rather nice but the S&W logo is still clear and crisp with no signs of polishing.



The roll stamping on top of the barrel is still clear, crisp and legible. No signs of polishing. I've gone over it with a light and mag glass and can't find any signs of stamps of any sorts. Where were the export/proof/military marks located? Someone once remarked that the British went overboard with the stampings on guns imported from the US so remnants should still be visible under magnification.



It appears to be just an old Smith&Wesson in medium rough shape but still a tight, good shooter.


PS. One other possibility is that the records that show the gun being sent to England are wrong. Oversight or foul-up by S&W. Although recorded as sent to England it was, in fact, just sold on the commercial market here in the US. I've re-checked the SN and it's definitely 1616.

 

[mrcvs]

One other possibility is that the records that show the gun being sent to England are wrong. Oversight or foul-up by S&W. Although recorded as sent to England it was, in fact, just sold on the commercial market here in the US. I've re-checked the SN and it's definitely 1616.

Records generally trump everything! What basis do you have to prove they are wrong even if they are wrong? It's comforting to think they might be wrong to conform to a desired viewpoint, but the reality is, the records are a primary data source, for better or worse.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, it's something I have learned from many years of experience.

 

[Turnagain]

No basis at all. Just a speculation. What would be the point of painstakingly removing all British marks on an ordinary TL obviously converted from .455 to .45 Colt? Doesn't make any sense.



I don't have any desired viewpoint. I'm not touting the piece as an original factory built .45 Colt. It isn't. Records show that the gun was shipped to England but the gun clearly shows that it wasn't. It just seems to be a .44 TL factory converted to .455 and further modified to a .45 Colt by some unknown but fairly competent gunsmith.



The question remains, why would someone remove all the British markings leaving no visible trace of them? When I got the piece it looked somewhat better but whatever "blueing" substance was used began flaking off with cleaning leaving the barrel mostly in the white. Rest of the gun appears original with no polishing and re-blueing. The blueing on the cylinder is worn in places but looks original.



I'm just trying to figure out a bit of the history of this old darlin'.

 

[mrcvs]

Photographs would prove helpful.

Also, the estimated valuation of $800 to $850 was for those Triple Lock revolvers modified to .45 Colt that are cosmetically much less challenged. With yours being mostly in the white due to cleaning, or otherwise, $800 to $850 might prove a challenge if offered for sale. But I would think ANY Triple Lock today, even if modified and cosmetically challenged, as long as it is fully functional, would be worth at least $500 today and it's hard to believe that it might bring that little, so maybe $600 or a bit more is a better valuation.

Which is why photographs would prove helpful.

And, eventually, the factory letter will prove invaluable.

 

[gdogs]

I'd like to see where any Triple Lock, regardless of condition (assuming it is still fully functional), is selling for less than $800. Sure isn't anywhere I've seen in the last decade.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I'd like to see where any Triple Lock, regardless of condition (assuming it is still fully functional), is selling for less than $800. Sure isn't anywhere I've seen in the last decade.

An $800 triple lock would have to be trash. Even modified TL's are selling for more than that.

 

[series guy]

Call me crazy (hope you don't mind standing in line ) But I wouldn't sell this one for $600.

 

[mrcvs]

Gee, I don't know….

I haven't seen any modified to .45 Colt sell recently, but a few years ago, a bunch came up about the same time, with decent finish, and they all sold for $800 to $850. They all were cosmetically attractive. You then subtract from this for cosmetic flaws. So, from this, a $600 or $700 figure is derived. Maybe due to recent trends, those that sold in the $800 to $850 range might now be worth $950, but those Triple Locks modified to .45 Colt do hold their value, but shouldn't increase at a percentage greater than nicer specimens.

I read somewhere on this forum that investment grade New Model No 3 revolvers have only appreciated, on average, 2% per year over the last 30 years.

 

[Turnagain]

I'm not so sure now that a letter will help. It's apparently "known" that SN 1616 was sent to England. However, the gun itself shows that it wasn't sent to England. It does seem to be a .44 that was re-chambered to .455 by the factory and that has been altered to .45 Colt. Other than the .45 hand stamped into the barrel it's devoid of any other markings save the "Smith & Wesson, Springfield...etc." rolled into the top of the barrel.



Well, I suppose that I'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime, it's something interesting to gnaw on.

 

[gdogs]

I watched a satin nickel refinished Model 29 that was described as a project, with timing issues and a rough action sell for $729 (plus tax and shipping) on GunBroker in the last week or so. A few years ago $500 was about the minimum any N frame would bring on the auction sites, now it is closer to $700. I can't see any Triple Lock selling online for less than $800. My converted 45 Colt with an excellent reblue wouldn't leave my stable for less than $1200, and I have zero doubt that it would bring more than that on GB.

 

[mrcvs]

I guess time fli s when you are having fun, and Triple Lock revolvers are tremendous fun!

I purchased my "not cosmetically challenged" but altered to .45 Colt from .455 Webley at the time several came up for sale, and all sold in the $800 to $850 range, what I thought was a few years ago. My records show that this revolver, in what I describe as 85 to 90% condition, was sold to me 27 May 2016 for $800. Serial number 3863, shipped December 2014, presumably to the British Government.

Perhaps in today's market this revolver is now worth $1000. At that time, any N frame revolver, no matter how bad, was worth at least $500. Perhaps that figure is now $700 making yours worth in the $750 or $800 range?

 

[mrcvs]

Here's the thread I created on mine around the time of purchase. I also resurrected it for fresh eyes. I hope this helps!

Markings on Triple Lock, shipped to British government December 1914

 

[Turnagain]

Call me crazy (hope you don't mind standing in line ) But I wouldn't sell this one for $600.

Oh my! That looks like the rat-rod of TLs. Looks awful but from the way it shoots, runs like it has a blown and injected hemi. I like it.

 

[Hondo44]

The letter's value is that it will confirm where it was shipped. In the case of the British contract guns, they went to REM-UMC, their purchasing agent and presumed on to England. Only REM UMC can confirm if it did; maybe.

But with anything S&W the main rule is always, there are no rules!

If it did go to England, the most likely reason for no stamps in my opinion is that it was purchased by an officer because they were required to buy their own sidearm. Which makes your gun even more interesting and worth more investigation on the web. Records due exist! Can you trace back where you got it from for an owners name or family name?

 

[Hondo44]

By the way, explanations of the stamps and locations with photos, here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...government-december-1914-a.html#post141315105

Keep in mind, the gun shown has military acceptance, proofing and export stamps, the whole enchilada. Guns that came back across the big pond to the USA thru other than official export channels (like in a GI duffle bag, etc.) will not have proofing and export marks, like the multiple crown stamps, the NOT ENGLISH MAKE for resale, etc. NOTE: these stamps changed over time and will differ depending on the time period when the gun was exported.

 

[StrawHat]

I bought my New Century 455 this past summer for quite a bit less than $800. It was known to have been altered to 45 long Colt and had several other issues. I bought it for a project and paid accordingly.

Blanket statements like "…any N frame is worth $$$…" are meaningless in the real world to a patient man who knows what he is looking for and what he is looking at.

My last 4 N frames do not total $2000, all bought in 2021.

Yes, I got good deals but isn't that the point?

Kevin