3rd Gen frame/slide internal wear

JohnHL since you chose to publish my PM to you, you should have included the title as well - "Sour grapes much?"

I meant to. I just forgot.

I guess it wasn't all that important to me.

I sent you the PM so as not to embarass you, here, publicly. But since you seem as set on embarrassing yourself as you are to find a problem with the pistol in question, have at it.

I'm not embarrassed.

I'm never embarrassed when I speak forthrightly in search of the truth.

Sorry if you think I'm trying to denigrate your heroes.

You have said you are not a technical sort of guy, and that's cool if that's how you want to be, but I've been a technician all of my life and questions are the key to knowledge.

I spent 40 years as a Top Tier Technician fixing all brands of motorcycles (Harley-Davidson, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Triumph, BSA, Norton, Moto Guzzi, Bombardier, etc.) and I never put someone in a life or death situation based solely on the opinions of others and consequently, no one ever got hurt as a result of my actions.

OP, please enjoy that fine pistol! And don't take the rest of the thread as an example of a regular occurence here. The majority here are not smarmy with the other more EXPERIENCED members, who go out of their way to help us and answer our questions.

Fastbolt and BMCM have taught me much and have helped many here. Myself included! Stick around and tell us how that 9mm TSW shoots for you. Regards 18DAI

1ActuaL3, if my concerns have been offensive to you (and I don't think they have been) I apologize.

John
 
Fastbolt, I'm curious (not suspicious) when I see what looks like damage on the right hand barrel lug of a pistol after I've been told that an S&W Repair Tech says damage is most likely to occur in that area.

And what could be more relaxing than sitting on the couch on a beautiful, 75 degree afternoon in the Foothills of the Ozarks, having a spirited conversation about 3rd gen firearm repair? :cool:

John

We're apparently not talking about the same things.

I went back to find and re-read what I posted when I was talking about the difference in wear marks on the top of the frames, when the repair tech was explaining how barrel torque and unlocking would usually cause more discernible wear visible on one side than the other. On the top of the frame, caused by the barrel chamber (bottom) slamming down onto the frame ... not on the barrel lugs.

Well, I remember a repair tech explaining that we'd see more shiny wear on the steel frames of our 4566TSW's (and aluminum wear on the 4513TSW's) on one side, than the other, due to the way the barrel torques to resist the bullet's passage and drops down onto the top of the frame. He said the barrel would hit a bit harder on one side ... and I think it was the R/side? If so, that might explain why the R/side cam lug cut is starting to lift a bit. It was being hit harder by the R/side barrel cam surface?

Perhaps that's the disconnect in our crossing posts.

The areas on each side of the OP's pic (and mine, for the 4013TSW), where I saw the usual imprint of the barrel's bottom chamber slamming down against the frame, is what I was talking about. The tech told me that it wasn't uncommon to see a shinier spot on one side of the steel frame, caused by the torque effect (of the bullet's passage through the rifling in the bore) as the barrel dropped down.

FWIW, with the difference in shape between the 9/.40 & .45 rails, you'll note the barrel (rear chamber) impact against the frame produces some different wear patterns. Compare the "butterfly" shaped patterns on my CS45, with the marks on the OP's 3913 and that of Gary's.

Let me go have dinner with my granddaughter, and I'll post some pics of a few other 3913/3913TSW barrels, and a couple of the frames. You might find it interesting.

If I saw damage (not wear) to the barrel's steel camming lugs, I'd want to know how it happened. Especially if it was in an aluminum-framed pistol. Somebody drop a barrel on the garage concrete floor pad, or onto the concrete area where our cleaning stations were located at the range? :eek: I've seen some new barrels where the rear edges and corners were a bit sharp, or even burred, but they came that way.
 
We're apparently not talking about the same things.

I went back to find and re-read what I posted when I was talking about the difference in wear marks on the top of the frames, when the repair tech was explaining how barrel torque and unlocking would usually cause more discernible wear visible on one side than the other. On the top of the frame, caused by the barrel chamber (bottom) slamming down onto the frame ... not on the barrel lugs.



Perhaps that's the disconnect in our crossing posts.

The areas on each side of the OP's pic (and mine, for the 4013TSW), where I saw the usual imprint of the barrel's bottom chamber slamming down against the frame, is what I was talking about. The tech told me that it wasn't uncommon to see a shinier spot on one side of the steel frame, caused by the torque effect (of the bullet's passage through the rifling in the bore) as the barrel dropped down.

FWIW, with the difference in shape between the 9/.40 & .45 rails, you'll note the barrel (rear chamber) impact against the frame produces some different wear patterns. Compare the "butterfly" shaped patterns on my CS45, with the marks on the OP's 3913 and that of Gary's.

Yes, you are correct.

It was my impression the Tech was speaking of the initial camming action when it seems he was speaking of the last moment of barrel movement when the chamber flats are smashing down against the top surface of the rails.

Am I understanding that properly?

Let me go have dinner with my granddaughter, and I'll post some pics of a few other 3913/3913TSW barrels, and a couple of the frames. You might find it interesting.

If I saw damage (not wear) to the barrel's steel camming lugs, I'd want to know how it happened. Especially if it was in an aluminum-framed pistol. Somebody drop a barrel on the garage concrete floor pad, or onto the concrete area where our cleaning stations were located at the range? :eek: I've seen some new barrels where the rear edges and corners were a bit sharp, or even burred, but they came that way.

Please enjoy your dinner and family time.

I certainly appreciate the explanation and I anxiously await your post and pictures as I do with all of your posts.

I'm sure I will find it interesting.

You are a wealth of knowledge and I'm proud to say I have learned much from you.

Please forgive a little well meaning dissent on my part, Professor.

John
 
Okay, I grabbed my mid-production ('98) 3913, my late production 3913TSW, and 3 older 3913/6906 barrels for some quick comparison pics.

The 3913 has seen a fair amount of use, meaning at least several cases of various duty loads over time, which have included standard pressure 147gr, 127gr +P+ & 124gr +P. The 3913TSW is still pretty much pristine, since it was only used as a reserve duty weapon for several months and I was the only issued user to ever shoot it. A handful of range sessions. Less than a thousand rounds? It's seen some retirement qual shooting, but not a lot (not like I used to shoot all the time ;) ).

The 3 spare barrels are used, from early production 3rd gen guns.

So, the 3913TSW frame, being lightly used, has this amount of wear marks from the barrel dropping down onto it, during live-fire cycling (Pretty similar on both sides):


(The dark grey lengthwise "lines" on the top of the frame rails are due to the way the lube on the wear spots reflected the 3 lights above the gun while taking the pic. When I wiped off the lube it looked different, but I'd already taken the pic and didn't feel like taking another one of it.)

The left and right sides of the bottom of the rear of the barrel, showing the rear edges of the chamber area and the camming lugs. I apologize for one of them being a bit fuzzy on the cam lug point, but it shows the rear/bottom edge of the barrel chamber.



Notice how clean and smooth the edges and points are on the this late production gun. I haven't felt the need to do any deburring (yet ;) ). Sure, there are some various machining marks/lines visible, but they don't "stick out" from the surface like burrs.

Now, my older 3913.


Note how the wear mark for the barrel is noticeable on the left side of the frame, but barely a "scuff" on the right side. When you look at the pics of the bottom of the barrel, you might notice the R/side rear corner is very smooth and rounded off. I also deburred the rear corners and edges of the barrel camming lugs many years ago.




Now, the older spare 3.5" barrels. A mixed bag. You'll see how the edges can vary.



And on this one, you'll note that the R/side barrel camming lug has a nasty and uneven trailing edge and point. I can imagine that uneven and sharp edge probably left some noticeable wear on the frame cam lugs of the aluminum frame of the gun from which it originally came. Ugh.


BTW, if anyone wonders about the way the rearmost edges of the barrel and feedramp sides of the older 3913 (and 6906) barrels show a sort of discoloration, that's because in those days the factory dipped the rear of the barrel chambers (tabs, mouths and feedramps) into a solution for an electrochemical polishing final step. It's visible as shiny/dark spots on the back edges and corners of the old barrels in my pics, and really noticeable in this pic of my 3913 barrel, visible running up/down the side of the feedramp, and under the bottom.


My 313TSW barrel doesn't show it because they changed and improved their overall production and finishing steps in the later production guns. Notice how the rear corners of the barrel chamber floor and the cam lugs are clean, smooth and evenly shaped? More consistent than the older barrel manufacturing, but considering the money they were spending on upgrading their equipment at the time ... it ought to be. ;)

Too bad that just about the time they'd reached the pinnacle of 3rd gen design and manufacturing, they decided to discontinue them in favor of plastic. Dammit.
 
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I just went back and fleshed out a couple points, so you may wish to refresh the page in case anything of them might be of interest.
 
Thanks, Fastbolt.

There is is quite a diverse variety of wear and finish among those barrels.

That nasty looking edge on the rear of the right side barrel camming lug on your second to last picture looks pretty gruesome, as though it could plow out that aluminum frame lug.

I feel about the 3rd Gen TSW pistols like I do about the P-51 Mustang.

The pinnacle of design and engineering at the time technology went in a different direction.

Thanks again.

John
 
...
It was my impression the Tech was speaking of the initial camming action when it seems he was speaking of the last moment of barrel movement when the chamber flats are smashing down against the top surface of the rails.

Am I understanding that properly?

Yep.



Please forgive a little well meaning dissent on my part, Professor.

John

Oddly enough, there was a point early in my career when "The Professor" was a nickname someone hung on me.

Given my druthers, I'd have preferred "The Shell Answer Man", since "The Professor" reminded me of Gilligan's Island. I was also called "Dietrich" for a while at one point (Barney Miller character), for my comedic comments, unflappable manner and having the gall to have the answers much of the time.

Like everyone else, I've also had worse nicknames thrown my way. Not that I cared ... :cool:
 
I always enjoyed Steve Landesberg's character "Dietrich" on "Barney Miller".

I too was the go to guy for answers at the dealership.

It was always, "Ask John. He'll know."

Curiosity is the addiction and knowledge is the drug.

I wasn't much for nick names, but I've had more than my share of epithets thrown at me. :eek:

John
 
...
I too was the go to guy for answers at the dealership.
...

The dealership? Car dealership? I grew up in the car business, and worked at it through most of the 70's and up until I became a cop in the early 80's. (My dad jumped from working on jets at Convair, to selling Ramblers when I was a youngster.)

That's where I learned there really is an *** for every seat.
 
If that pistol were mine I'd strip it and set that barrel in a padded vise and with a smooth file those burrs would be gone in a short time. Then would use some tool makers stones to round off the areas where the burrs were.
They should not have been there in the first place. I'd put a light coat of prussian blue also known as layout marking fluid on the reworked areas just to make sure anything I did wasn't about to show up again. Frank
 
Motorcycle dealership.

Harley-Davidson, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Bombardier, Sea-Doo.

I had the top factory accreditations in all makes and models from all of the manufacturers.

I got paid to make multiple trips to Milwaukee, York, Daytona, Phoenix, Seattle, and a bunch of small towns for classes, seminars, and updates.

Got three all expense paid trips to Hawaii, and one to Dallas (Dealey Plaza and the School Book depository was an eye opening experience).

My Grandma could have made those shots.

I did work at a Ford dealership for a short time in the early '70s, but motorcycles were my passion so I returned to them.

It was a fun career, but being in management, there were attendant stresses.

So did you stay with AMC during your car dealer days?

I'll have to say, the AMX (2 seater) was a clever adaptation from the good folks in Kenosha.

The Javelin had some sexy styling from such a staid manufacturer.

And the "SC" (the Rambler Scrambler aka the "mail box" car) was the funkiest production hot rod to hit the streets in 1969 and forever.

A working life is a journey, and you never know where it will take you.

John
 
Dodge, Ford and BMC (Jag, MG, Rover and Triumph).

I recall British Leyland being the conglomerate for the English cars back then.

The early '70s was a tough time for car enthusiasts because the triple whammy of Federal regulations, high insurance prices, and the first gas crisis emasculated the muscle car and killed the convertible.

At least the manufacturers still had styling up until 1972.

In 1973/4 the federal government mandated the "5 mph" bumper front and rear and then the cars looked as bad as they ran.

It was a great time to be in the motorcycle business as performance was everything!

John
 
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