Something on the less expensive side…

[BB57]

I found a vendor at a gun show last weekend selling Bersa Thunder pistols in .22 LR and .380 the other day for $265.

I have a couple Walther PP pistols in .32 ACP and and a few Manurhin and Ranger made PPK/s pistols in .380, as well as a Walther PP in .22 LR (the British issued L66A1 version, 1 of 3200 made, of which 1500 were imported into the US by Interarms).

I also have one of the Walther Umarex PPK/S .22 LRs, and frankly it shoots really well, better than my PP in .22LR.

Then I have several FEG made PP series clones in .32 ACP and .380 ACP.

But I’ve never owned or even shot a Bersa pistol, even though it has a lot in common with the PP series.

I bought the Thunder in .22LR mostly to have a .22LR pistol that wasn’t collectible and at $265 it’s dirt cheap as new pistols go.

However I also bought the Thunder in .380 just to see how it compares to my other PP’esque .380s.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Thunder .22LR. I put over 200 rounds of high velocity ammo through it including Aquila Super Extra in both solid and hollow point form as well as Winchester’s current 40 gr HP promo ammo. I had only one failure, and that was a stove pipe with the Winchester ammo that was probably just a lower than normal velocity round.

CCI standard velocity was a different story as it lacked the recoil to fully cycle the slide.

None the less it is far more reliable than my PP in .22LR and equal to my PPK/S .22LR and Beretta 71. Part of the excellent reliability is due to a very good magazine design, very similar to what Walther Umarex did with the magazine on the PPK/S .22 LR, with a very good feed angle and a wide enough stack that the rims can stagger themselves in the magazine and eliminate any curve in the stack.

It’s not as accurate as my PP or PPK/S, but is in the same ball park as my Beretta with palm of the hand sized 10 shot groups at 15 yards. It’s a few finger widths to the right, but the rear sight is windage adjustable so I’ll fix that before the next range session.

Both pistols have a much better trigger pull than any of my PP series pistols. The PP, PPK and PPK/S are all based on state of the art 1929 trigger geometry and there just isn’t anything you can do to give them a light DA trigger pull. That’s one of the obvious differences with the Bersa Thunder. The DA trigger is much more usable and while the SA trigger has some take up, it’s not bad.

The .22LR and .380 are very similar but there was one notable difference in the front sight. On the .380 it’s a dove tail front sight and on the .22LR it’s staked. The only QA issue on either pistol was the front sight on the .22LR is slightly loose and rocks back and forth a bit. That probably accounts for some of the vertical stringing in the 15 yard group.

The .380 had similar accuracy, again not on par with a Walther PP or PPK/S, but very serviceable. Both pistols would keep all shots on an 8” plate at 25 yards, and 15 yard groups were palm sized - more than adequate for a self defense pistol where shots will almost always be 7 yards or less.

The .380 was relentlessly reliable with FMJ ammo (I’ll try some hollow points soon). However, when it came to recoil it had a distinctly sharp feel in the web of my hand. 50 rounds were enough for a single range session, while a PP or PPK/S can comfortably be shot for 100 rounds in a session.

The FMJ loads I fired were full power 100 gr practice loads that produce the same recoil as my .380 self defense loads. The Bersa might be slightly under sprung for these full power loads, but there is no evidence of battering of the frame.

None the less it was 100 percent reliable and the cases ejected consistently at 3 o’clock.

——

I will say these are aluminum alloy frame pistols and unlike some of the tactical Tupperware out there, alloy and steel frame pistols generally like to be run wet. The Bersa proved to be no exception. Both got a thorough cleaning before first use and a liberal lube of the slide and frame rails. Run them dry and your reliability mileage will probably vary.

All in all, both of them impressed me as excellent bang for the buck pistols.

 

[BB57]

A bit of an update.

I made a second range trip with them and fired 50 Hornady 90gr XTPs through the .380 ACP and it functioned flawlessly. I’d want to fire another 50-100 rounds before I carried it, but based on the preliminaries it looks very promising for both reliability and accuracy.

——

I also fired some Remington Thunderbolts, some old Winchester 555 and some really old CCI Mini Mags through the .22 LR and it again functioned with excellent reliability.

In a not so good development the slightly loose front sight parted company with the slide. I ordered a replacement from Numerich for $6.75.

 

[Sevens]

No thought to contacting Bersa to send you a front sight?

I’ve had enough experience with the .380 Thunder to back up what you said — they run well and are well built and they are NOT fun to shoot. I’ve never in all my life come across a 9mm made by anyone that approaches the recoil nastiness of this particular .380 pistol.

Attractive pistols but for that reason alone, I cannot recommend them.

 

[Drm50]

Bersa is second rate junk. $265 x 2 = $ 530, that will by a used good condition 1st rate firearrm. Like a Beretta, but only one.

 

[robrossk]

I hesitate to call them junk but my experience with the .380 was not so good either.

 

[Rustyt1953]

I have owned a Bersa Thunder .380 for over 20 years and it has yet to disappoint.

 

[Grayfox]

Thanks for the report. I've always heard good things about the Bersa pistols. Maybe not a top gun, but for the price they're worth considering.

 

[BB57]

Bersa is second rate junk. $265 x 2 = $ 530, that will by a used good condition 1st rate firearrm. Like a Beretta, but only one.

I’m not arguing with your math. But you seem to have missed two important points.

First, in the local gun shop and at local gun shows, the people I most often see not just shopping for but actually buying a handgun are women, usually women of color and obviously looking for a handgun for self protection. They are generally not the stereotypical right of center customer. That’s a massively good thing when you consider that greater firearms ownership equates to more protection of 2A rights. The more (responsible) people, from whatever race, ethnicity, sex or class they come from, who own guns the better off we all are.

Many of them do not have a great deal of discretionary income. $265 plus $265 does equal $530, but when you add in a cost of around $200-250 for a concealed carry permit in NC (by the time you consider the $75 application fee, $10 in finger print fees and $100-$150 for the required training plus a box of ammo for live fire qualification) that $530 is now $730-780 for a gun and a permit.

$265 for a Bersa .380 gets them a gun, and $465 to $515 total actually let’s them carry it.


Second, $530 gets them a Bersa Thunder in .380, and a near exact copy in .22 LR for them to learn with and practice a lot more with for a lot less money.

Personally, I stock up when ammo and reloading supplies are cheap are cheap. I seldom handload less than 2000 rounds per run and my regularly stocked handgun calibers include .32 ACP, .380 ACP, 9mm Luger, ,38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP and .45 Colt - on top of somewhere well north of 20,000 rounds of .22 LR. But that’s a bit in excess of the average or median number of rounds on hand for the average shooter.

Consequently, when ammo gets in short supply and companies convert the tooling they use to produce .380 ACP to production of 9mm Luger instead, .380 ACP ammo quickly dries up. That shortage makes it not only much less expensive to practice but also *possible* to practice when the .380 ACP owner also has the same pistol in .22 LR.

Lots of 9mm Luger and .45 ACP shooters also have a .22 LR version of their carry pistol, or a .22LR conversion slide for it. But they are virtually guaranteed to pay a lot more than $530 to acquire both of them.

——-

I see way too many so called self defense shooters on pretty much any gun forum who debate endlessly about the best pistol or the best round for conceal carry/self defense and it’s pretty clear most of them don’t shoot enough and/or lack any significant degree of proficiency. Accuracy suffers and under extreme stress they will devolve to their lowest level of fully master proficiency - which is almost none. Shot placement suffers, if they even manage to hit the assailant.

——

That’s the whole point of talking about less expansive options. A $265 Bersa Thunder in .380 ACP isn’t a perfect handgun by any means, but it is surprisingly good for the money - and at least in the case of the one I bought, is good enough for self defense and concealed carry purposes. That low price also opens the door for a new shooter to buy one in .22LR, learn to shoot a handgun properly with it, and then add the .380 ACP version of that handgun for a more effective self defense handgun - with the benefit of having enough basic level of skill to hit an assailant center of mass under stress.

I will also add that it’s few faults aside, the Bersa .380 ACP is a much better option than other similarly priced pistols. A few years ago I bought a S&W M&P Bodyguard in .380 ACP for similar money. What a piece of garbage. It was incredibly unreliable. Worse, it now sells for north of $300 and it isn’t any better than it used to be.

A few years ago I also bought an RIA Baby Rock, again for similar money (although they sell for around $400 new now). For a cheap handgun it was superb. Relentlessly reliable, accurate, durable and the 3.75” barrel gave the .380 ACP a bit more velocity than the Kimber Micro, Sig P238, etc.

 

[BB57]

Bersa is second rate junk. $265 x 2 = $ 530, that will by a used good condition 1st rate firearrm. Like a Beretta, but only one.

Which Beretta by the way?

 

[Drm50]

Which Beretta by the way?

For $530 there are a lot of Berettas in that price range used. I have always held on and saved to buy a quality product whether it be a tool or a gun. At $530 there are all kinds of choices.
If you are buying because you are worried about having to use a gun for self defense and you are only going to buy one gun at $265. There are also used options instead of bottom drawer stuff.
It’s lipstick on a pig.

 

[TX-Dennis]

I have a pair of .380s. One of them has over 20,000 rounds fired over the last 10 years or so. That one has been back to Bersa for service when the "e-clip" that secures the trigger bar came loose. If I'd known what the problem was then it could have been easily fixed with a trip to the hardware store. I've since replaced it once on my own. No other problems with either pistol. That little 5 cent clip seems to be the weak point of the pistol and why I wouldn't recommend carrying it for defense.

One of ours has the Hogue wraparound rubber grips. They do mitigate the sharpness of the recoil somewhat compared to the standard hard plastic grips. I agree, though, that its felt recoil is not mild for the caliber. The only thing I have that feels worse is my Ruger LC9s. That thin hard plastic grip just fits my hand the wrong way, I think. I have a similar sized Sig P938 that has milder felt recoil along with a slightly smaller, but thicker in the grip Taurus GX4 that has very mild felt recoil for a small pistol - at least in my hands.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Bersa is second rate junk. $265 x 2 = $ 530, that will by a used good condition 1st rate firearrm. Like a Beretta, but only one.

Hmmm........Like my GSG 1911-22......Made of recycled beer cans and other stuff.......Yet going on ten years it runs perfectly if kept clean and lubed.

 

[max503]

I have a Bersa model 223, SA 22 auto. It has sentimental value, other wise I would sell it. Not very reliable, but a fun range toy, sometimes. I want to like it. I really do. But it is just not reliable.
I've thought about trying a Bersa 380 but that's all I need; another unreliable semi-auto.

 

[BB57]

…/

/…I have a similar sized Sig P938 that has milder felt recoil along with a slightly smaller, but thicker in the grip Taurus GX4 that has very mild felt recoil for a small pistol - at least in my hands.

I have a Kimber Micro and a Kimber Micro 9. The Micro 9 actually has less felt recoil than the Bersa .380, although not by much.

There are two major advantages to a locked breech design like the Kimber Micro and Sig P238 with the .380 ACP.

First the recoil impulse is spread out a bit more by the locking system, and the slide velocity is lower. Both reduce the perceived sharpness of the recoil.

Second, the recoil spring can be lighter, which makes it easier to rack the slide, and that becomes a big deal on short slide compact pistols.

The Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP weighs about 24 oz, unloaded compared to 20 oz for the Bersa Thunder and that extra 4 oz. makes the PPK/s more pleasant to shoot. The Kimber Micro weighs just 13.4 oz unloaded but the locked breach design leaves it with a felt recoil no worse than the PPK/S.

 

[BB57]

For $530 there are a lot of Berettas in that price range used. I have always held on and saved to buy a quality product whether it be a tool or a gun. At $530 there are all kinds of choices.
If you are buying because you are worried about having to use a gun for self defense and you are only going to buy one gun at $265. There are also used options instead of bottom drawer stuff.
It’s lipstick on a pig.

You’re evading a bit now.

An M9 / Model 92? The grip is too large for many people and it’s too large for on body carry for many women.

An 80 series Cheetah? It’s a good choice, but they are not all that common around here in very good to excellent used condition. I own one, but it took me over a year to find one. They are not all that common even on GB and if it’s an early 84 or an 86 it’s quite collectible and will sell for $900-1000. You can get an 84F for around $500. But then add in transfer fees, shipping, and then add some more in terms of credit card fees or money order fees.

And remember that’s for a new shooter buying a gun he or she may have never held before. One of the biggest mistakes I see new shooters make is buying a gun that doesn’t fit their hand. I have customers hold the gun in their hand and bring it up to eye level with their eyes closed. Then I have them open their eyes. If the front and read sights are more or less level, it’s a good fit and they will be Abel to fairly quickly develop a good grip that will leave the sights naturally aligned. If the front sight is higher than the rear, we can probably salvage it with a st of aftermarket grips and or they can eventually develop a grip that will still leave the sights aligned. But if the front sight is out of view, it’s a lost cause.

In the store, that fit issue can be addressed. With an on line purchase it’s a **** shoot.

As for used options in general, I agree a good quality used gun is often a better deal than a new gun of lower quality. But once again at this time there just are not that many quality used guns showing up.

You’re advising people to wait and save up. That speaks of privilege in two ways. First, saving up often goes off the risks with the first unanticipated expense, like an unexpected car repair. That’s a reality for low income individuals, especially now with a combination of intense resistance to paying a livable wage and rising inflation. It also speaks to the fact that you probably don’t live in a neighborhood where you need a handgun for self defense. Good for you, and for me for that matter. But not everyone is that fortunate.

 

[BB57]

No thought to contacting Bersa to send you a front sight?

I’ve had enough experience with the .380 Thunder to back up what you said — they run well and are well built and they are NOT fun to shoot. I’ve never in all my life come across a 9mm made by anyone that approaches the recoil nastiness of this particular .380 pistol.

Attractive pistols but for that reason alone, I cannot recommend them.

I thought about it. I’m not sure if Bersa is a company that will send you a part, or if they are like Ruger, Rossi, S&W etc that require you to send it in for repair. That’s a PITA that takes week or months.

I checked Numerich and they had the part in stock for $6.75. It’ll be here by noon today.

 

[BB57]

I have a Bersa model 223, SA 22 auto. It has sentimental value, other wise I would sell it. Not very reliable, but a fun range toy, sometimes. I want to like it. I really do. But it is just not reliable.
I've thought about trying a Bersa 380 but that's all I need; another unreliable semi-auto.

That’s a large part of my pleasant surprise with the Bersa Thunder in .22 LR. It is very reliable, and that was frankly unexpected.

I hate to say it, but I own a number of excellent condition Walther, Manurhin, and Ranger made PP and PPK/S pistols in .380 ACP and there is only 1 of them (one of my two Ranger made PPK/s pistols) that I have full confidence in for concealed carry with hollow point ammo.

I do have two Walther PP pistols in .32 ACP that are former Austrian police pistols and they are both extremely reliable with 60 gr XTPs.

All of them would now cost at least 3 times what the Bersa .380 cost me, so it’s not all about money or “quality”.

 

[H Richard]

I have a Bersa Thunderer in .380 that I bought for $230 back in 2004. It has one of the lightest smoothest slide racking of any semi auto that I won, and the trigger pull is in the 4 lb range and very smooth. Unfortunately, my wife tried it, and it is now her gun.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I’m not arguing with your math. But you seem to have missed two important points.

First, in the local gun shop and at local gun shows, the people I most often see not just shopping for but actually buying a handgun are women, usually women of color and obviously looking for a handgun for self protection. They are generally not the stereotypical right of center customer. That’s a massively good thing when you consider that greater firearms ownership equates to more protection of 2A rights. The more (responsible) people, from whatever race, ethnicity, sex or class they come from, who own guns the better off we all are.

Many of them do not have a great deal of discretionary income. $265 plus $265 does equal $530, but when you add in a cost of around $200-250 for a concealed carry permit in NC (by the time you consider the $75 application fee, $10 in finger print fees and $100-$150 for the required training plus a box of ammo for live fire qualification) that $530 is now $730-780 for a gun and a permit.

$265 for a Bersa .380 gets them a gun, and $465 to $515 total actually let’s them carry it.


Second, $530 gets them a Bersa Thunder in .380, and a near exact copy in .22 LR for them to learn with and practice a lot more with for a lot less money.

Personally, I stock up when ammo and reloading supplies are cheap are cheap. I seldom handload less than 2000 rounds per run and my regularly stocked handgun calibers include .32 ACP, .380 ACP, 9mm Luger, ,38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP and .45 Colt - on top of somewhere well north of 20,000 rounds of .22 LR. But that’s a bit in excess of the average or median number of rounds on hand for the average shooter.

Consequently, when ammo gets in short supply and companies convert the tooling they use to produce .380 ACP to production of 9mm Luger instead, .380 ACP ammo quickly dries up. That shortage makes it not only much less expensive to practice but also *possible* to practice when the .380 ACP owner also has the same pistol in .22 LR.

Lots of 9mm Luger and .45 ACP shooters also have a .22 LR version of their carry pistol, or a .22LR conversion slide for it. But they are virtually guaranteed to pay a lot more than $530 to acquire both of them.

——-

I see way too many so called self defense shooters on pretty much any gun forum who debate endlessly about the best pistol or the best round for conceal carry/self defense and it’s pretty clear most of them don’t shoot enough and/or lack any significant degree of proficiency. Accuracy suffers and under extreme stress they will devolve to their lowest level of fully master proficiency - which is almost none. Shot placement suffers, if they even manage to hit the assailant.

——

That’s the whole point of talking about less expansive options. A $265 Bersa Thunder in .380 ACP isn’t a perfect handgun by any means, but it is surprisingly good for the money - and at least in the case of the one I bought, is good enough for self defense and concealed carry purposes. That low price also opens the door for a new shooter to buy one in .22LR, learn to shoot a handgun properly with it, and then add the .380 ACP version of that handgun for a more effective self defense handgun - with the benefit of having enough basic level of skill to hit an assailant center of mass under stress.

I will also add that it’s few faults aside, the Bersa .380 ACP is a much better option than other similarly priced pistols. A few years ago I bought a S&W M&P Bodyguard in .380 ACP for similar money. What a piece of garbage. It was incredibly unreliable. Worse, it now sells for north of $300 and it isn’t any better than it used to be.

A few years ago I also bought an RIA Baby Rock, again for similar money (although they sell for around $400 new now). For a cheap handgun it was superb. Relentlessly reliable, accurate, durable and the 3.75” barrel gave the .380 ACP a bit more velocity than the Kimber Micro, Sig P238, etc.

Smith's whole Sigma line was total junk.....Might have been good for trot line anchors.....Since I don't catfish I wouldn't know.