Recommend a revolver for a disabled shooter?

I've said this several times here: A .22LR on target is worth more than 10 .44 magnums scattered about the county.

A model 10 any length bbl that she can hold and shoot then load it with .38 S&W shorts. Folks will tell you the .38S&W shorts won't fit in the chambers but some chambers they will. If you can't get them then have a local reloader make some up for you by cutting back some .38 spl's to the same length and load them up to .38 S&W specs. Whole lot of bad guys have been brought down by .38S&W.
 
9245 said:
So my girlfriend wants me to teach her to shoot and then get her carry license, wonderful! I picked a good one:) However there are some unique challenges: she has cerebral palsy, she is normally confined to a wheelchair and has only one fully working hand (the other works but can only make a claw), and the working one has minimal strength. Do to circumstances (some do to ammo price/availability others not) I have not been a able to get her to the range yet, but I have had the chance to let her handle some of my stuff and more at the store, I'm trying to get an idea what will work well for her.

I discovered some things:
She cannot work the slide of a semi auto, not even the Shield EZ, although she got close with that one (granted I have not had her try the 380 version yet), in the event of a jam or stoppage she would be screwed and I'm willing to bet she will limp wrist it.

She also cannot work the cylinder release of a NEW Smith and Wesson revolver, it's too stiff, however she COULD relatively easily work the one on my late 1970s model 10.

She says she likes the model 10 and liked the size (4 inch 10-6) too.

I'm considering building her a custom model 10 from parts but before I go that route I wanted to see what modern options might be available.

Price should be as low as possible, certainly under $1,000, preferably way under as I don't even know if she'll like it.
I'd like to find her something similar to the 4 inch 10-6.
I want her to have nice adjustable night sites
A laser would be nice but not required
A rail and red dot cutout would also be nice but are not required
Caliber must be decently effective (meet the FBI minimum in gel tests) but have a relatively low recoil, bearing in mind her hand strength.
Capacity must be 6+ (OK this is my own bias but I just never understood 5 shot revolvers) but the more the better.

I like the idea of hammerless or a bobbed hammer but still would like there to be a usable hammer, she was having some issues dry firing in double action mode, she could do it, but single action was easier for her. So something with a low profile/snag resistant hammer but still thumb cockable?

Any suggestions?

I'm stymied by not getting her to the range yet but, without getting in to her business, there are reasons that hasn't been possible yet but I'm hoping to be able to get that rectified in the next few weeks/couple of months.

I'm thinking maybe a 9mm (or .38 special like the Model 10 of course, but I'm still not a super fan of that caliber), or maybe .327 magnum?
Click to expand...

Some thoughts from a person who has CP. I have also trained under both Massad Ayoob and Grant Cunningham.

Here are some of my thoughts:

K-frame S&W in 38/357 seems to be the best option. If she has trouble breaking the cylinder open, have a god gunsmith go over the cylinder release and keep working on it until she can open it easily.

Mid-range wadcutters are something to think about or maybe the Federal HST low-velocity load. While I have no problem with it, from what you say, I gather that rapid reloading of the gun is not a good option for her.

How does she intend to carry it? You mentioned that she wants to get her carry license.
 
You have a model 10, let her try it, 10's can be modified to fit the shooter. If recoil of the 38 spl is tolerable, I would go that way. I like the 22lr for practice for everyone, I am sure you can find an inexpensive 22 for practice. I would not go below a 38 spl if she can use the mod 10. You said she is confined to a wheelchair, there are many ways to conceal on s chair, s few friends are chair bound and are always armed. PM me if you do not have a 22, I may be able to help. Be Safe.
 
A few more comments on some of the comments.

1) I'm in agreement that new shooters are far better served learning with a .22 LR. I'll start new shooters off with a .22 LR pistol and or revolver and have them learn the basics without having to deal with the recoil, muzzle blast and the inevitable flinch that develops.

2) I'm in agreement with the folks who are stating one way or the other that you should not get hung up on a minimum caliber. A person who shoots a .22 LR extremely well is far better protected than someone who scatters .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, or .38 Special all over the target.

Once someone is up to speed on .22 LR, I'll transition them to a steel frame .32 ACP pistol, or a .32 S&W long revolver where the recoil is only slightly greater. Once they are comfortable with that, then and only then will I introduce them to a .38 Special or .380 ACP, and again ensure they are comfortable and are not suffering a loss in accuracy or developing a flinch before stepping up to 9mm or .357 Magnum. That progression might take a couple range sessions or a dozen, depending on the person. And some folks just never get comfortable with excessive recoil and or recognize then shoot a lighter recoiling cartridge much better and recognize less is more in that situation.

3) Someone suggested starting with a Model 10 is a good choice, and that the Model 36 or a lightweight alloy J frame would be even better. But it's just not that straight forward. A K frame might be too large drop wise and weight and balance wise, especially in a 4" barrel. A 2" Model 10 might be better, but keep in mind 38 special ballistics in a 2" barrel are no better than .38 ACP. Similarly, a Model 36 will be smaller and lighter and it might be more controllable for a shooter, but the recoil is also significantly greater even with standard pressure .38 Special, and you still have the poor ballistics issue. An alloy J frame adds nothing at all to terminal performance and just increases felt recoil significantly.

I see shop staff recommend a lightweight J frame to women on the assumption they will be more likely to carry a lightweight revolver. But the fact is they are far less likely to shoot a lightweight J frame enough to become or remain suitably proficient with it. It's an expert's revolver and pretty much the worst possible choice for a new shooter.

4) There is way too much focus on "effective" handgun calibers for self defense when the fact is that *all* of the, are inadequate. An armed citizen is far better off with a small caliber that they shoot well than they are with a larger one that they do not. 8 rapidly and accurately placed rounds from a .32 ACP are going to be more effective than 5 much slower and poorly placed rounds from a .38 Special.

——-

The reality also is that the vast majority of instances where a handgun is used for self defense do not involve firing the gun. In many of those cases the gun never even gets drawn. Successful criminals are pretty good at reading people and they look for soft targets.

If an armed citizen has good SA, sees the prospective assailant well before he is in range to begin the assault, and isn't showing the expected fear, that assailant will almost always seek an easier target. He might not know why the intended victim is showing the expected level of fear, but competent criminal will heed that instinct and find a softer target. That's a successful defensive use of a handgun as it prevents anything from even getting started.

In other cases, an assailant will stop short of or stop the assault as soon as he realizes the victim is armed and in the process of reaching for or drawing a gun. Getting shot isn't a good career move for a criminal and it's just good business to turn and run, and then seek an easier victim. Again that's a successful defensive use of a handgun without a shot actually being fired.

When a gun is actually fired, the fact that the would be victim is shooting at the assailant is often enough to cause the assailant to discontinue the assault. Again, getting shot isn't career enhancing and there just isn't any profit in it.

Finally, when a gun is fired and an assailant is hit, about 50% of the time a single hit will stop the assault. Again, getting shot sucks, is not career enhancing and isn't conducive to living a whole lot longer.

Consequently, unless the assailant is on something and or is a psychopath, and or is really mad at the potential victim in a very personal way, one hit is enough to end the assault.

Unfortunately, way too many shooters - and men specifically - place a great deal of priority on caliber selection and magazine capacity in order to prepare for that last situation, or something even more absurd and uncommon like multiple assailants and the assumption they'll have to shoot them all to stop an assault. They are preparing for a worst case scenario that represents a small fraction of all defensive handgun uses and almost always involves a massive SA fail and or being in a situation they could have and should have avoided in the first place.

When I see people bragging on their EDC that includes an 18 round handgun and two spare magazines, my first thought is "idiot…if you really think you need that, you are clearly going places or getting into situations that anyone with brains would avoid."

To put that in context 75% of FBI agent involved shoots consist of three shots or less fired at 3 yards or less. Up that to 5 shots or less at 5 yards or less and your at 95% for officer involved shootings. That other 5% are just not situations the average armed citizen should ever find themselves in.

Now…I'm not saying we shouldn't have access to high capacity handguns because we don't "need" them. I am saying we should not get wrapped up in a perceived need that has a very very low probability of ever arising and in the process and pass up other more practical alternatives.

I am also saying we should not be pushing people into larger handguns and larger calibers based on that worst case scenario. Why? Because people will be less likely to carry an overly large handgun and many shooters will be far less proficient shooting a larger caliber handgun. They may well be less prepared for that worst case scenario, but they will be far more likely to be armed adequately for the other 95% of actual incidents where a handgun has to be fired, as well as for the far more likely and common situations where just having a gun is enough to prevent an assault.
 
"When I see people bragging on their EDC that includes an 18 round handgun and two spare magazines, my first thought is "idiot…if you really think you need that, you are clearly going places or getting into situations that anyone with brains would avoid."

I own two 9mm Hi-Powers with 20 round magazines. They stay at home. So does my .45 1911 Commander.
I CARRY a 9mm converted 5 shot Airweight J-frame (yes, the recoil hurts).
If I ever need more than 5 rounds, what I really need is a fast pair of tennis shoes.
My older brother carries one too, and has used 3 rounds during a home invasion. He has severe arthritis, but says he didn't notice the recoil.
 
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I see a lot of folks recommending lightweight J-frames. You seem to forget that the lady is in a wheelchair. I doubt size and weight are of any real significance here. She will likely carry the gun in the chair rather than on body.
Give her something with enough size and weight to dampen recoil and shoot well. ;)
 
Llance said:
I've said this several times here: A .22LR on target is worth more than 10 .44 magnums scattered about the county.

A model 10 any length bbl that she can hold and shoot then load it with .38 S&W shorts. Folks will tell you the .38S&W shorts won't fit in the chambers but some chambers they will. If you can't get them then have a local reloader make some up for you by cutting back some .38 spl's to the same length and load them up to .38 S&W specs. Whole lot of bad guys have been brought down by .38S&W.
Click to expand...

.38 Short Colt is the same dia. as .38 Special if you are shooting factory loads and getting .38 S&W to work in .38 Special chambers is a little bit of hit and a lot of miss.
If reloading there is no need to shorten .38 Special cases. Just load the regular cases at .38 Short Colt or .38 S&W velocities. Larry
 
Imissedagain said:
A Bobcat 21a with match grade ammo would work for me.
Click to expand...

I don't have a Bobcat but I have it's granddaddy the 950B, which was a minor revision to the 950 and preceded the 950BS, the Model 20 and the Model 21.

The 950 was introduced in 1952 followed shortLy by the 950B. Mine is the Minx version in .22 Short, as opposed to the Jetfire version in .25 ACP (top):

001(152).HEIC


It is also one of the last 950B pistols imported into the US as it was made in 1968, just before the GCA of 1968 and its point system made importation illegal. The 950B reappeared as the 950BS with a manual safety in 1978 when Beretta started making them in the US. It stayed in production until 2003 giving the 950 series a 51 year production run.

I inherited it from my mother in law who conceal carried it in a Bianchi holster for decades. I like plinking with it as it is both surprisingly accurate and extremely reliable.

I liked it enough that it inspired me to get a Beretta 3032 Tomcat (bottom). This particular variant is suppressor ready, which is no big deal, but the longer 2.9" barrel (versus 2.4") is nice as .32 ACP needs all the help it can get.

The only major limitation with the 3032 is that it is designed for .32 ACP / 7.65 Browning ammunition with a muzzle energy of not more than 130 ft pounds. Shooting ammo with greater muzzle energy and recoil impulse can cause cracks in the frame.

130 ft pounds allows:

- 60 gr hollow points at 990 fps;
- 71 gr hollow points or FMJs at 905 fps;
- 73 gr hollow points or FMJs at 895 fps and
- 75 gr hard cast bullets at 885 fps.

That covers pretty much all the commercial .32 ACP / 7.65 Browning ammo out there, except for the Buffalo Bore, Cor Bon and Underwood Extreme Defender ammo marketed as "+P" ammo. (There is no actual .32 ACP +P standard.)
 
This week I worked with three senior women, two in their 80's.

None could rack a slide of any type. Cocking the hammer removed half the pull weight, but that was not enough. I see this consistently with senior shooters. I can only recommend the older tip-up models in semi-auto handguns.

One walked in with a Model 60 loaded with custom 38 spl. She said she tried to unload it, but could not work the cylinder release. She swept me 2 times getting the gun out of the bag before I could stop her. We immediately covered the 4 basic safety rules !!! BATF - Barrel control, Always loaded, Target ID, Finger off the trigger. BATF

I placed a revolver in each of their hands and required them to hold it the entire training session to show them that no mater what they thought, they would sweep everyone multiple times while handling.

We moved to the grip being critical and never losing the grip as you manipulated the gun.
We worked on opening the cylinder technique and within 10 minutes, they were able to push the release and flip out the cylinder with their fingers on their left hand. They need practice keeping the grip and not rolling the gun around trying to find a way to operate the firearm.

I had them handle a dozen revolvers loading, unloading, and dry firing. I hid a few plastic dry fire cases in the cylinders to get them used to being surprised by having what looked like a cartridge in the "unloaded" gun. Guns are always loaded !!! Get used to it.

Each of the 3 ladies quickly gravitated toward the 22's and the 32S&W long. The revolvers for those calibers were LIGHT and low RECOIL. That's the combo that is required. I hope you realize that most of us use Weight to mitigate Recoil. That simply does not work for seniors or handicapped.

Lastly, each had problems shooting double action. None of my revolvers have over an eight pound squeeze, but that was still too much. None could hold the barrel on the target when trying DA. Single Action (SA) was a delight for them. They loved practicing the squeeze and not the jerk. I told them the jerk was the guy they married.

It took a couple of hours, but now they can at least safely evaluate a firearm when next week we hit the firing line and rent.

Please, guys, quit trying to pick out a handgun for a woman. Would you really buy a pair of shoes for her without trying them on? The shoes might fit and look great on you, but she may feel differently :)

Prescut
 
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Another vote for the Kimber K6S, either 3" or 2". Six shooter, and easy trigger pull. About 8 oz lighter than a M10. Easy to shoot with Federal HST micro, which Lucky Gunner tests show meets FBI protocol. Now available in DASA. A high quality revolver, mine have both been flawless.

73,
Rick
 
I think a hammerless snub in whatever caliber she can manage makes the most sense. Civilian self-defense in general is more a matter of fighting with a gun than it is shooting, and any assault attempt on her would likely be one of trying to exploit her disability. A gun that is easy to access, quick into action, retainable, function reliably while in contact are key points. Distances will likely be extremely close no matter what, so "shoot-ability" isn't really a concern.
 
OP, what I am about to say will probably anger many here, and for that, I am extremely sorry.

Virtually everyone that has shared advice here is highly experienced and respected on this forum, but in many respects, they are speaking based on their limitation-free experience. I know that when I became disabled, it angered me to no end listening to people as how to do things or telling me what I was and wasn't capable of doing. Based on that approach, I would suggest that you listen to either Snubby or Gerhart, or others that have challenges, since they have "been there and done that"!

My biggest question that I would ask, before heading out to the range, is how has your lady's long-term outlook been?

Based on my experience competing with numerous people that are confined to chairs (via the Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit), I would make the dangerous presumption that your friend would have her sidearm mounted in some manner to her chair (off body) as opposed to carried on body, for ease of access and draw. For when she is alone, does she use a manually propelled chair, a motorized chair, or even a scooter? I ask this, because it will have a significant impact on both her situational awareness and her mobility!

One of the greatest advantages of having participated in the Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit, is (as a former educator) that I am exposed to use of adaptive techniques. A number of my fellow participants at the ADSS have lost use of an arm, and need to master one-handed manipulation of a semiautomatic handgun. These participants are great with their chosen pistols, and make the matches highly competitive! When they need to reload, they reholster their pistols, drop the magazine, regrip the pistol and either drop the slide or manipulate the slide one-handed.

Based on your description of your lady's abilities, and what I have observed other similarly challenged shooters do, I'd suggest the following:
A Ruger Mk IV 22 cal pistol with a 1911-style magazine release, with a slight modification. Visualize a replacement slide cover for a striker fired pistol that has an extension ear on either one or both sides of the cover. Have a competent gunsmith fabricate and install such a tab on the back of the Ruger's bolt, allowing one-handed manipulation of the Mk IV.

Personally, if I were in your lady's situation, I'd use a pistol like this loaded with a magazine full of CCI Stingers. It has a thumb activated safety, holds 10 rounds, has light recoil, and the trigger pull of about 4 pounds.
 
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Does her wheelchair have a built-in table she can rest over her lap? She can use it as a shooting support.
 
[QUOTE=9245;141334488 I'm trying to get an idea what will work well for her.

I discovered some things:
She cannot work the slide of a semi auto, not even the Shield EZ, although she got close with that one (granted I have not had her try the 380 version yet), in the event of a jam or stoppage she would be screwed and I'm willing to bet she will limp wrist it.




(meet the FBI minimum in gel tests) but have a relatively low recoil, bearing in mind her hand strength.


So something with a low profile/snag resistant hammer but still thumb cockable?

Any suggestions?



QUOTE

If she can't work the slide of an auto that rules out autos.
Several people recommend the 21A with the tilt barrel and I had one and using CCI MiniMags the first shot snapped and pulled the trigger again it still did not fire. If that happened during an assault it would have been hard to tilt the barrel, use something to punch out dud, place another cartridge and close the barrel.
If she has to have something with low recoil because of hand strength you may have to forget about the FBI minimum in gel tests.
A low profile, snag resistant hammer? M49 S&W but it's chambered in .38 Special and .357 Mag.
The lowest recoil center fire I know of is .32 S&W but sometimes they are hard to find. The next up is .32 S&WL. Larry
 
To answer some questions:

She is in a manual wheelchair though it does have power assist wheels. She WANTS a power chair but insurance will not cover it and the cheapest we have seen them for sale was about $15,000 with some approaching the price of a new SUV, absolutely ridiculous and unobtainable. Can someone explain how I can easily get an electric bike for $1,500 or less (some under $1,000) but a chair that uses the same technology somehow STARTS at $15,000? Rant over.

Her condition is stable, there is no continuing degradation although she has to be careful to avoid impacts to part of her head due to a missing section of skull (as she explained it to me). She used to be in that horse program to learn to walk and was making progress but the facility shutdown and no others are within range. She also started some kind of robotic therapy but says that due to demand for the machine her appointments are a full 5 years apart. In the meantime she can use a walker on occasion and can walk without one for very short distances if she has either assistance or something to hold on to.

We have not discussed carry methods but I just assumed she would mount it yo the chair, which is what I will suggest.

We will be getting to the range sometime after the holidays, the main issue is transportation, she needs a handicapped van and thus far the company had been stubborn about where and when they will take her places. I can also move her by transitioning her from her chair to my car seat but for reasons I won't get in to that has not been possible yet but may in the spring. (Basically the van will only take her within a half hour or so from home and the ranges are farther than that, on occasion they will do up yo an hour but that's like pulling teeth) I have looked in to buying a van but lack the requisite $70,000+ base price.

I will indeed be starting her with a .22lr, specifically a Heritage Rough Rider, but obviously that is a target revolver, not a carry piece. It's basically an SAA and in addition to being single action only the reload time is impossible to do in a fight and likely impossible for her at all.

If it turns out all she can do is shoot .22lr than fine but I'm really going to push for something more effective if she can handle it.
 
9245 said:
To answer some questions:

She is in a manual wheelchair though it does have power assist wheels. She WANTS a power chair but insurance will not cover it and the cheapest we have seen them for sale was about $15,000 with some approaching the price of a new SUV, absolutely ridiculous and unobtainable. Can someone explain how I can easily get an electric bike for $1,500 or less (some under $1,000) but a chair that uses the same technology somehow STARTS at $15,000? Rant over.

Her condition is stable, there is no continuing degradation although she has to be careful to avoid impacts to part of her head due to a missing section of skull (as she explained it to me). She used to be in that horse program to learn to walk and was making progress but the facility shutdown and no others are within range. She also started some kind of robotic therapy but says that due to demand for the machine her appointments are a full 5 years apart. In the meantime she can use a walker on occasion and can walk without one for very short distances if she has either assistance or something to hold on to.

We have not discussed carry methods but I just assumed she would mount it yo the chair, which is what I will suggest.

We will be getting to the range sometime after the holidays, the main issue is transportation, she needs a handicapped van and thus far the company had been stubborn about where and when they will take her places. I can also move her by transitioning her from her chair to my car seat but for reasons I won't get in to that has not been possible yet but may in the spring. (Basically the van will only take her within a half hour or so from home and the ranges are farther than that, on occasion they will do up yo an hour but that's like pulling teeth) I have looked in to buying a van but lack the requisite $70,000+ base price.

I will indeed be starting her with a .22lr, specifically a Heritage Rough Rider, but obviously that is a target revolver, not a carry piece. It's basically an SAA and in addition to being single action only the reload time is impossible to do in a fight and likely impossible for her at all.

If it turns out all she can do is shoot .22lr than fine but I'm really going to push for something more effective if she can handle it.
Click to expand...
It sounds like you're on the right track.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
 
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