Roll crimp or not

[jcelect]

In an auto the magazine inhibits bullet pull! In a revolver there is nothing to inhibit bullet pull. I have shot many HOT loads in revolvers and if you ever experience bullet pull in a 44 Mag and it ties up the cylinder, you will roll crimp ALL revolver rounds for the rest of your life!
jcelect

 

[Johnnu2]

I feel VERY STRONGLY both ways.....

but since I'm signed on: I've only tapered crimped my 45ACPs for the past 50+ years.... but I'm NO expert by any means, just lucky I guess

J.

 

[gwpercle]

To use a roll crimp ... a bullet must have a place for the roll to go , a crimp groove or a cannelure ... or the case may bulge out .
Shooting 45 acp in revolvers will allow you to use a roll crimp ... some 45 bullets are designed for 45 Auto Rim ... a thick rimmed 45 acp .. usually a SWC design with a crimp groove .
You don't have to use a roll crimp in 45 acp revolver reloads but if the bullet has a place to put one and if your crimp die will put on a roll crimp ... it doesn't hurt a thing and there will be no bullet setback or creeping forward .
Most of us have 45 acp dies that only Taper Crimp ... but roll crimp dies are available . If you set says ... 45 acp / 45 A-R ... it may have both dies in the set or the crimp die may be adjustable to apply both ... check die directions .
Taper crimping will work just fine when properly applied ...let the bullet be your guide or just taper crimp em' all .
Gary

 

[alwslate]

Keep in mind if you roll crimp over the leading edge of the bullet shank the powder may need to be adjusted as the bullet is seating much deeper in the case and could cause over pressure. Measure your two different Overall Lengths and see how much it actually is. It might surprise you.

Well crimping over the leading edge isn’t going to decrease OAL by much with short SWCs since they are usually seated to very close to the edge anyway. And beyond that I use loading manuals as guidelines not absolutes. I usually load to a velocity that I want, chronograph all handloads and adjust all powder charge weights as needed to get the velocity I want.

 

[cmj8591]

I guarantee that as soon as you finish roll crimping that last ACP, you're going to want to shoot them in your 1911.

 

[alwslate]

I guarantee that as soon as you finish roll crimping that last ACP, you're going to want to shoot them in your 1911.

You might want to but loads in AR brass don’t usually feed very well in 1911s

 

[mikld]

I'd agree, if you are making match grade ammo for competing at a high level.

But for ordinary accurate range fodder, I don't trim pistol ammo.

One thing I strongly recommend is to get a fourth die and thereby separate the seating and crimping operations. You have two seat/crimp dies. Set up one for seating, and the other for crimping. I've always done that with both pistol and revolver loads. Works.

Agree. I have roll or profile crimped bullets in all my revolver cartridges since about 1970 and deflared only in all my semi- auto handloads, 99% in 2 steps but cannot ever remember trimming a case, 32 ACP through 45 Colt, never a crimp/accuracy problem with "variations" in case length...

 

[Hair Trigger]

How is the charge hole in the M625 configured? Does it have a shoulder for the case mouth to headspace from, or does it depend on moon clips to headspace the cartridge? If the former, a taper crimp would be correct; if the latter, either one would work. Generally, I taper crimp anything that doesn't have a cannelure. True jacketed ammo can be difficult to get a good roll crimp without the cannelure, but plated bullets will compress better when roll crimped than jacketed bullets.

I've never owned a revolver that can chamber a rimless cartridge, don't plan to. I save those for my semiauto's.

 

[johngalt]

I've never used auto rim brass, but I always taper crimp my auto brass. I've never have problems with bullets jumping. I would expect auto rim to behave the same.

 

[LostintheOzone]

The 625 will pull bullets that are taper crimped and lock up the cylinder. Doesn't matter if you use AR or ACP brass. The clip acts as a rim so they both headspace on the rim.

I only apply a very light taper crimp to my 45 ACP ammo for my 1911. Never had any bullet creep. If I put that same ammo into my 625 it pulls bullets.

The person who claims that a roll crimp is needed for a revolver is correct. Most 45 ACP bullets aren't designed to be roll crimped but a few casters make 45 ACP bullets that can be roll crimped. I've also seen some FMJ with a cannelure for roll crimping. I just ordered some lead bullets from Bayou Bullets so I know they exist.

I would be suspect of anyone who says they shoot taper crimped ammo in a revolver.

 

[LostintheOzone]

In an auto the magazine inhibits bullet pull! In a revolver there is nothing to inhibit bullet pull. I have shot many HOT loads in revolvers and if you ever experience bullet pull in a 44 Mag and it ties up the cylinder, you will roll crimp ALL revolver rounds for the rest of your life!
jcelect

It happens with 45 ACP also. Revolvers need roll crimps. Shoot them enough with pick up range brass and you will soon learn. It just takes some longer then others to figure it out.

 

[rockquarry]

The 625 will pull bullets that are taper crimped and lock up the cylinder. Doesn't matter if you use AR or ACP brass. The clip acts as a rim so they both headspace on the rim.

I only apply a very light taper crimp to my 45 ACP ammo for my 1911. Never had any bullet creep. If I put that same ammo into my 625 it pulls bullets.

The person who claims that a roll crimp is needed for a revolver is correct. Most 45 ACP bullets aren't designed to be roll crimped but a few casters make 45 ACP bullets that can be roll crimped. I've also seen some FMJ with a cannelure for roll crimping. I just ordered some lead bullets from Bayou Bullets so I know they exist.

I would be suspect of anyone who says they shoot taper crimped ammo in a revolver.

I guess there are always exceptions and no real absolutes. I have four S&W .45 ACP / Auto Rim revolvers, a 625-3 3", a 625-6 5", a 25-2 6 1/2" and a 22-4 4". The newest one is the 22-4 that I bought new about fifteen years ago. I seldom use .45 ACP ammo, much preferring Auto Rim brass, but I taper crimp both cartridges, always using cast bullets sized at .452". I've never had a problem with bullet movement. I crimp as lightly as possible, just enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil. I use a taper crimp because I get slightly better accuracy than I do with a roll crimp.

I'm still using a batch of Remington Auto Rim brass that's been fired many times.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You can add a light roll crimp to your 45 auto rim bullets without damage, just don't overdo it. Like said many times above, bullet pull is a reality in revolver ammo. You can also use a 255gr bullet used in the 45 Colt.

 

[rockquarry]

You can add a light roll crimp to your 45 auto rim bullets without damage, just don't overdo it. Like said many times above, bullet pull is a reality in revolver ammo. You can also use a 255gr bullet used in the 45 Colt.

I've tried the Lyman #454424 design, the .45 Colt bullet at about 260 grains in my 625-6. I didn't do extensive work, using only a few powders. Brass was all taper crimped. One load was quite accurate, but recoil, at least for me, became significant with the heavy bullet.

My favorite load for a long time in either Auto Rim brass for the revolvers or ACP brass for the 1911s has been 5 gr. Bullseye and the SAECO #069 design ( a copy of the H&G #68) at around 200 grs. or so for about 850 - 875 fps.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I guess there are always exceptions and no real absolutes. I have four S&W .45 ACP / Auto Rim revolvers, a 625-3 3", a 625-6 5", a 25-2 6 1/2" and a 22-4 4". The newest one is the 22-4 that I bought new about fifteen years ago. I seldom use .45 ACP ammo, much preferring Auto Rim brass, but I taper crimp both cartridges, always using cast bullets sized at .452". I've never had a problem with bullet movement. I crimp as lightly as possible, just enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil. I use a taper crimp because I get slightly better accuracy than I do with a roll crimp.

I'm still using a batch of Remington Auto Rim brass that's been fired many times.

230 grn. bullets? Do you shoot range brass? Do you load toward the upper end of the range of the suggested loads from the manuals?

Lots to factor in there.

I also load cast .452 for a 625-8. I don't use AR brass but it shouldn't matter. What matters is the ability of the case to hold the bullet with neck tension. We all know that the taper crimp isn't what's holding the bullet in the case. The taper crimp should only be enough to bring the case mouth back to the proper dimension after it is belled. Too much taper crimp and you start crushing lead bullets. I've come across lots of range brass that won't properly size. Those are the cases that can still be used in a revolver with a roll crimp. Otherwise I load them for my 1911. A good test for neck tension is to push the loaded round into your loading bench with some force. If the bullet doesn't move you have enough tension for a 1911. My 625 will sometimes pull those same bullets. I know that seems pretty incredible but it happens enough that I roll crimp now for my revolver.

I've read that some reloaders are now using roll crimps for 45 ACP revolvers so it must be a thing. Both Redding and RCBS makes a roll crimp die for 45 ACP. The only people who would want or need those would be revolver shooters.

 

[BB57]

I’ve been hand loading for 45 years now, for a wide variety of pistol revolver and rifle cartridges.

I do not roll crimp unless I absolutely have to. Period. There is absolutely no value in it when it isn’t needed.

When do I have to? When I am shooting a magnum revolver cartridge in a lighter weight revolver where the recoil is so heavy that a taper crimp isn’t sufficient to prevent the bullet from backing out of the case. Those magnum cartridges also all have a .4 or .5 in the name.

I have a performance center 625 and it’s an awesome revolver for practical shooting, and with quality moon clips and round nosed bullets it almost loads itself.

But it’s still. 45 ACP and there is absolutely no need to roll crimp. The .45 ACP, like most semi auto pistol cartridges, was designed to headspace on the mouth and there is both no reason and no advantage to using a roll crimp with it.

Worse, once you do that you are forcing the cartridge to headspace on the rebated rim and in turn on the moon clip. Buy moonclips from a few different sources and then measure them. If you are headspacing on the rebated rim and moon clip, you’re going to have excessive headspace more often than not.

 

[rockquarry]

lostinozone-

I've used many bullets and have a variety of .45 moulds that cast bullets from about 185 grs. to 260 grs. I think most of the information your requested is in my other posts.

I have used mixed range brass, but much prefer all brass of the same brand and batch. Range brass, even if it's free, will never be better than using brass that's all the same. You can feel all the different neck tensions from the different brass when you seat bullets. If that's good enough for you, no argument from me. I just don't see such brass as really being free when you have to deal with the attendant headaches.

Of course, with all the current shortages, mixed range pickup brass may be all that's available for some and it will certainly work. Much better than not being able to shoot.

I've loaded plenty of max level cast bullet loads during load development for revolvers and have yet to have a problem with taper crimps. I've been using a batch of much fired Remington Auto Rim brass but have tried a few from a new batch of Starline. I don't mix the two. I haven't fired the Starline enough to know how long it will last, but I think it will be fine.

 

[LostintheOzone]

But it’s still. 45 ACP and there is absolutely no need to roll crimp. The .45 ACP, like most semi auto pistol cartridges, was designed to headspace on the mouth and there is both no reason and no advantage to using a roll crimp with it.

Worse, once you do that you are forcing the cartridge to headspace on the rebated rim and in turn on the moon clip. Buy moonclips from a few different sources and then measure them. If you are headspacing on the rebated rim and moon clip, you’re going to have excessive headspace more often than not.

I have to disagree with some of this. The only reason a head space ledge is cut in a 45 ACP cylinder is to facilitate the revolver to be fired with 45 ACP ammo without a clip. Since the beginning the S&W 1917 revolver cylinder was cut with a head space ledge not unlike a 1911 barrel so the ammo could be fired without being clipped. I've tried this in my 625-8 and you don't need a clip except clips makes extraction and loading much easier. Most clips are 0.04" thick, at least the ones I've used are.

HEADSPACE

All of this talk about headspace had me curious so I actually measured from the front of the cylinder to the end of the case using a fully loaded clip and new ammo. 1.63".

Then I measured it again without the clip using the same ammo inserted into the cylinder. That ammo is head spacing on the cylinder wall, not a clip. 1.61"

That tells me that when I use clips the case is not using the cylinder wall to head space.

I don't have any AR brass but you can run the same test. I would doubt that AR brass would allow you to head space on the cylinder wall. Why would it? The entire reason for the introduction of the rimmed AR cartridge was to eliminate clips. The AR case should always headspace on the rim.

According to the dimensions given for AR brass and ACP brass using clips, the dimension from the clip face to the case mouth and the dimension from the face of the AR rim to the case mouth are the same. ..809". Neither one head spaces on the cylinder wall. The case mouth by design for both ACP and AR fall about 0.02" short of the cylinder wall ledge.

None of this however has anything to do with neck tension and revolvers pulling bullets.

 

[bruce381]

I'd agree, if you are making match grade ammo for competing at a high level.

But for ordinary accurate range fodder, I don't trim pistol ammo.

One thing I strongly recommend is to get a fourth die and thereby separate the seating and crimping operations. You have two seat/crimp dies. Set up one for seating, and the other for crimping. I've always done that with both pistol and revolver loads. Works.

I agree other than what I ment saying roll crimping needs brass at a uniform OAL. If the brass varies in length there will some rounds that due to longer case length will buckle when rolled and will not chamber in cylinder.

 

[jcelect]

Headspace! ! ! !

Headspace is the distance between the recoil shield (firing pin nose bushing) to the cartridge face when inserted in the chamber! This distance should be .002"-.010". On a revolver designed to fire a rimless cartridge a device must be used to hold the cartridge from entering the chamber too far! Hence the use of the 2rd, 3rd, and full moon clip! Also, the face of the cylinder must be machined to allow for the thickness of the moon clip when the clip is inserted into the extractor groove of the round. For those that use the Auto Rim brass, please notice, the thickness of the rim of the brass is much thicker than any normal rimmed brass. This thickness is necessary to make up the thickness of the moon clip and the rim of the ACP brass. For those of us shooting a 625 with moon clips a slight roll clip aids round entry into the chamber on a speed load. A taper crimp leaves a square shoulder on the round which can hang up on the cylinder edge unless the chambers have been chamfered.
jcelect