S&W Schofield Second Model Civilian Nickel

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Hi,

I was able to acquire this Schofield Second Model, serial #8349, over the weekend. I never thought I would have the chance to own a Schofield, so I never really paid much attention or put much time into researching them. This one does have the factory letter verifying that it was shipped from the factory with the 7" barrel and nickel finish. I did read in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson that there were only 650 Civilian Models produced, and the factory letter states 685 Civilian Models, so I realize this revolver is quite rare. The factory letter also states that of the 50 units contained in this shipment, 45 were blue and 5 were nickel leading one to believe that a nickel commercial revolver would even be more rare yet??? I don't really have a question, I'm just looking for any thoughts or comments on my purchase, or any other general information anyone would like to share on the S&W Schofields.

Thanks,
 

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A couple of more pictures
 

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Schofields are a real problem to collectors for several reasons. Dr. Roy Jinks says the records are very fragile and difficult to read clearly, so for example, he uses the S&W invoice date when the company billed the US Gov't for the 1st models as the shipping date for all 1st models. I don't have a problem with that,and it an acceptable effort to help us collectors, however this causes collectors to think they have a military Schofield if they letter a 1st model, when it's possible they might have a super rare 1st model civilian gun, or if they also research the Army's records they might find their gun was issued to a Cavalry unit long before it was "shipped" . There were probably 35, or so, 1st models, serial numbers 1 thru 35, in their own serial number range separate from military numbers, that were given as gifts or shipped to distributors by S&W. They are not military shipped guns, but "civilian" 1st model Schofields and it is believed from research and identification of 2 known guns, ser. #s 6 & 13, that 1st model civilian Schofields were produced in their own serial number range. Even those two guns are stamped "US" as the stamp was applied early in production to all Schofields and those parts were later used for both military and the civilian 1st models. The poster's factory letter uses the adjective " probably" for the shipping info. on his 2nd model civilian. Again, I read that as Roy's best effort to tie down the hard to read records and provide a letter and if his Schofield is original nickle , I think the chances the shipping info may very well be on the money. Ed
 
Rare Bird

Beautiful gun. Rare bird for sure.

I have to comment on the nickel finish though. Just being honest here:
There should be no "Factory" nickel on the cam (see photo), catch (see photo) & latch, trigger guard or hammer. Suggesting that the original finish has been helped at some point. Or perhaps a very old complete refinish. Which was "extremely common". Original "factory" finish on these is as rare as the guns themselves. Most have been helped at some point.


Murph
 

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Civilian Models

I have a great respect for Senior members of this forum and their knowledge and lengthy study of the Antique Schofileds. I also have been studying Smith & Wesson's for some years now.

The "Civilian" variation of Schofield is a "Problem Child" in my studies. This is the "Problem" that I have.

I have yet to see a Civilian Schofield without "MILITARY INSPECTION" marks on them. See photo's of OP's Schoflied. Those are not factory stamped letters seen in the photos.

Those are MILITARY inspectors that stamped those letters "only after" inspecting the gun parts.

With an open mind? This gun "went to the military" first!!!!

In my opinion, it was "rejected" and sent back to the factory due to a failed inspection.. This is clearly documented in military records and letters that I have researched. The military "failed" many Colt's, Smith & Wesson's, Merwin & Hulbert's, Remington's, etc during the gun trials. The failure is confirmed but what happened to those parts and guns? I don't know for sure but returning the gun to the factory to me is a no brainer.

So, what I am saying here and stand by with research is that many if not "all" the Civilian sold guns actually did go to the MILITARY FIRST and were subsequently "rejected" and returned to the factory due to some type of defect. They were then repaired and sold to Major Distributors for the Civilian Market.

**** The exact same inspector marks can be found on Military Colts of that ERA.

Murph
 

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Research Notes

One quick follow up? I just looked through my research notes:

The Stamped letter P represents : "Proof firing" by the Military.

The Stamped letter C signifies the gun was "condemned" due to some type of failure during that process.

In other words, it didn't pass. So, somehow it made it's way back to the factory, was refurbished and sold to the Civilian Trade.

Murph
 
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If memory serves me, the Inspectors were housed at the Smith & Wesson factory. The revolvers were never completed nor were shipped anywhere before the parts were rejected. The parts were rejected before final assembly unless the final, completed revolver, was totally rejected.
 
Murph,
Research , which is always ongoing on Schofields, supports several things. During the production process as parts are made and inspected, two things happen; (1) the part's approved and and a sub-inspector applies his mark, or (2) the part is rejected and sent to the bone yard where depending on the part's problem it might be repaired and returned to the production line, or if not it might be retained for a non-military gun. S&W seldom threw away any part. Therefore in the production of civilian models, both 1st & 2nd Model Schofields, you will see parts with inspector's stamp and "naked"parts w/o inspectors stamps. These naked parts come from two sources (1) parts rejected by inspectors, and (2) parts made directly for civilian guns. Both types can be used on guns that show "US" stamps, as rejected parts that had the US stamp applied before inspection and were later rejected, did not have the US stamp removed, as that stamp did not have any bearing on whether the part was actually going to be used only on military guns. The only real guaranty a gun is a military gun is the final inspector's cartouche on the gun's stocks. That gun will also have the full set of subinspector's stamps on the requisite parts. A civilian Schofield will have non-cartouched stocks but can have various parts with sub inspector's stamps. For example, a subinspector may be inspecting cylinders. He creates two piles - approved and rejected. The rejected pile is probably very small. A fitter/assembler is building a civilian model and needs a cylinder. If the rejected pile happens to be empty, he uses a cylinder that has been approved for a military gun, so you will see civilian models with some parts having military approved stamps, but no military cartouche on the stocks.
Parson reported that he reviewed a "Day Book" at S&W that had 35 1st model ( if recall right ) Schofield shipments listed, w/o ser. #s. Those guns were for gifts and for some dealer shipments. That's why most references say there were 3035 1st models made and people incorrectly assumed that meant 3035 military models. I believe that total number, 3035, is correct, however serial numbers of actual 1st model military guns go from #1 to # 3000. Serial numbers from # 3001 to # 3035 are all 2nd model guns - so what were the extra 35 1st models ? It appears they must be the 35 guns on the unnumbered list Parson's reviewed and are the source of the 1st model civilian Schofields and it appears from examination of ser # 6 and 13 that those 35 guns were probably numbered 1 thru 35 in their own serial range. Ser # 6 is also stamped with S&W distributer's stamp for A. J. Plate. If the above analysis/asssumptions are correct, there must be duplicate serial #s for #s 1 to 35. A civilian #d gun & a military #d gun with identical ser. #s. So that's what I'm hoping to discover someday! I've owned or examined perhaps 1/2 doz + guns, with numbers under #36, over the last 50 yrs. Unfortunately only a few of them still had their original stocks (with or w/o a cartouche) and except for #6, none had a distributor's stamp. So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Ed

PS: Both Petter & Mike are correct. Somewhere I have a list of the sub inspectors and if I find it, I'll post it here to show who "C" & "P" might be. The "P" is usually a proof mark, as Ordnance rules required that stamping, however there will be a subinspector's initial stamp also on Schofield cylinders, usually just under the serial number stamping, which also could be a "P" . ( I just took a look at ser. # 16 . It's military and the cylinder. has the subinspector's initial"L" ( for Lyle) under the ser. # "16" and the "P" stamp on the next chamber to the right of the Ser# & L stamp. Ser # 1 has the same stamping. Both are now Wells Fargo guns .)
 
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Sub-inspector?

Hi Ed,
I think I found one of them:

Ordnance inspector: A. P. Casey?

That could account for the C'

Although, the Condemned C' looks the same to me documented in several references.

However, the P only comes up as a Proof firing mark

I can't see how the Proof stamp would be applied at the Smith & Wesson Factory unless the guns were all "test fired" at the plant?

Even if they were? Why would the military be inspecting and "Test firing" guns that were intended for the Commercial Trade?




Murph
 
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Great information guys. I should add that all parts do match, except for the retaining latch?? screw. If that's what you call the latch part on the barrel. The rear screw has a different number. I'll post pictures of the numbered parts when I get home from work tonight.
 
Additional photos?

Singleshot,
Can you please post a photo of any other letters found on the gun? Under the barrel close to the frame? Under the grips on the frame on either side?
thanks,

Murph
 
Nothing personal, Murph, but this info (which you have also posted previously) is NOT correct. A large number of the original nickel plated S&W's of the latter-half of the 19th century had the various parts you reference below nickel-plated in their initial production. There was no 'absolute standard' over their several period's of manufacture as to whether or not parts were blued, case-colored or plated. It was simply a 'we're doing it this way until we change it' process. At different times you have different finishes from both previous and later times on particular parts.

David



Beautiful gun. Rare bird for sure.

I have to comment on the nickel finish though. Just being honest here:
There should be no "Factory" nickel on the cam (see photo), catch (see photo) & latch, trigger guard or hammer. Suggesting that the original finish has been helped at some point. Or perhaps a very old complete refinish. Which was "extremely common". Original "factory" finish on these is as rare as the guns themselves. Most have been helped at some point.


Murph
 
Murph, Yes, "C" is Casey's stamp , however he usually inspected Colts, so I'm not sure , without finding my list of S&W Schofield inspectors, whether it's safe to assume a "C" on a Schofield is Caseys, or another inspector. The military inspectors would not be inspecting gun intended for the civilian market, per se. Military inspected parts on civilian guns are because those parts were handy & available in the parts bins when a civilian gun was being assembled and in the early production of the 1st models, most all parts being made were inspected by the military, so non military parts were probably few and far between, except for rejected parts. Ed
 
Nickel plating

Nothing personal, Murph, but this info (which you have also posted previously) is NOT correct. A large number of the original nickel plated S&W's of the latter-half of the 19th century had the various parts you reference below nickel-plated in their initial production. There was no 'absolute standard' over their several period's of manufacture as to whether or not parts were blued, case-colored or plated. It was simply a 'we're doing it this way until we change it' process. At different times you have different finishes from both previous and later times on particular parts.

David


Hi David,
Thank You for your honest input. I do disagree. There were manufacuturers that nickel plated "some" of those parts mentioned. Remington is an excellent example of a gun manufacturer that nickel plated Hammers and triggers on their Smoot revolvers.

However, most manufacturers did not nickel plate those parts for one reason. Nickel can peel off. The best example is the cam. That is one part that absolutely can't be nickel plated during that period since literally all of it's surface area is "on load" and rubbing constantly when operational. A very heavy load to eject spent cartridges. Nickel plating that part would cause "mal-function" to eventually occur from the nickel peeling off the part and jamming the action. That's pretty much not an opinion and that references the quality of plating during that time only.

If you look at the close up photo's that I posted you can actually see that peeling from those critical parts. So in my opinion it's not about a preferred method at that time? It's more about the firearm being functional and safe. Nickel plating critical parts that were subject to heavy load, rubbing? during that time only, was a bad idea.

To be clear....this has absolutely nothing to do with modern plating...I am writing about methods used on the 45 caliber Schofield revolver "only" and "only" the antique version manufactured and plated "Prior" to 1880.

I'm also not talking about what "Major Distributors" applied during that same time frame with their less expensive type plating the "entire gun"...Dip it all in the tank... That's what I'm seeing on the Op's gun as I have documented on many, many, antique firearms that were refurbished by Distributors to be sold at a higher profit margin after applying a less expensive type nickel plate.

Major Distributors also played a role in plating factory parts purchased for sale as "replacement parts". So, a lot of what is found today on antique firearms was actually originally performed by Distributors, not the factory.


Murph
 
Military inspection

Murph, Yes, "C" is Casey's stamp , however he usually inspected Colts, so I'm not sure , without finding my list of S&W Schofield inspectors, whether it's safe to assume a "C" on a Schofield is Caseys, or another inspector. The military inspectors would not be inspecting gun intended for the civilian market, per se. Military inspected parts on civilian guns are because those parts were handy & available in the parts bins when a civilian gun was being assembled and in the early production of the 1st models, most all parts being made were inspected by the military, so non military parts were probably few and far between, except for rejected parts. Ed


Hi Ed,
Thanks for your input. I'm reading a lot of letters between the Chief of Ordnance and inspectors directing them to "Go to the Factory" and inspect a specific number of guns prior to their shipping to the Armory. I know that we don't have their specific procedure documented, however I'm of the opinion that the guns were already assembled and ready to be "looked at" by the inspector. I suppose it's possible that the inspector would want to see each and every part prior to assembly. One never knows.

The letters, however, give me the impression that they not only wanted the guns ASAP but needed them distributed ASAP to various infantry and Cavalry units. There was a War on. Inspecting guns prior to assembly would be a very time-consuming process.

Murph
 
BMur,

Here's a picture of the rest of the markings you were talking about. The frame, cylinder and bottom of the barrel have these markings. I did not find any on the frame under the grips.
 

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