5G Roll Out and Aviation Safety

Retired W4

Retired W4

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The National Business Aviation Assoc. (NBAA) as well as major carriers (FAR part 121 and 125) are rightly concerned about interference of the C-Band's proximity to the frequencies used buy radar altimeters used in commercial aviation. The radar altimeter not only tells the pilot his actual height above the ground (at lower altitudes) but it is also tied into several other systems, such as Autoland, TAWS, EGPWS, HUD, EFVS, etc. which are all safety enhancing systems. If needed, do a search on the acronyms.

The last I heard, AT&T and Verizon have agreed to lower the power of cell towers in the vicinity of about 78 airports in the hope of reducing interference with these aircraft systems. Best of luck with LifeFlight helicopters and at smaller airports that cater to business/corporate aviation.

This subject is way to complex to cover in this forum, however the information is out there for those who are interested.
 
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Aviation is in a "the best we can hope for scenario." One of two things (or both) seem liable to happen. Aviation will adapt with different instruments and/or a catastrophe-in-the-making will eventually occur. If it's just a few lives, as in a corporate jet, it will be topical with the short-attention-span e-media for a day, maybe two, then swept under the rug and it will be business as usual. ;)

There is too much money in the cellular business. They will "win." They already have their scientists lined up telling us there is no problem. Gracious of them to turn down their equipment where they think a major incident might cause them some problems. :rolleyes: JMHO.
 
The 5G technology is being safely rolled out in Europe without any issues for an aviation network that's actually considerably more dense and complex than ours.

Of course the Europeans don't have our aversion to effective government regulation. The 5G bands are in a lower range, better buffered from the aviation-relevant bands, they also figured out such things as antenna power and antenna orientation beforehand.

Considering how heavily major US airlines have invested in 5G technology, you'd think they would also have paid a bit more attention.

Now regulators, the aviation industry, and the cellular operators are pointing fingers at each other and scaring the public. Keep in mind that no interference has actually been shown; everybody is panicking over a lack of proof that interference won't happen.

But the technical fixes seem to be there. Somebody just has to mandate them.
 
I'd always be careful when referring "effective government regulation," but that's just me.

Absalom said:
The 5G technology is being safely rolled out in Europe without any issues for an aviation network that's actually considerably more dense and complex than ours.

Of course the Europeans don't have our aversion to effective government regulation. The 5G bands are in a lower range, better buffered from the aviation-relevant bands, they also figured out such things as antenna power and antenna orientation beforehand.

Considering how heavily major US airlines have invested in 5G technology, you'd think they would also have paid a bit more attention.

Now regulators, the aviation industry, and the cellular operators are pointing fingers at each other and scaring the public. Keep in mind that no interference has actually been shown; everybody is panicking over a lack of proof that interference won't happen.

But the technical fixes seem to be there. Somebody just has to mandate them.
Click to expand...
 
biku324 said:
Oddly, all major population air hubs over Europe and Asia have 5G, the same aircraft instrumentation, and no problems.
Click to expand...

I referred to that above. The Europeans limit 5G to the 3.4 to 3.8 Ghz range. That's far enough from the 4.2 to 4.4 Ghz range used by aviation to provide plenty of safety margin.

But the US sold the 3.7 to 3.98 Ghz range to the cell companies for 5G, much closer and thus the source of concern. In addition, there are power limits and antenna positioning requirements in place elsewhere.
 
FWIW from The Great White North:

Canada 'in control' of 5G airport issues that led to cancelled flights in U.S.

Wireless providers in the U.S. and Canada use different spectrum for their 5G deployments, and Canada already has measures in place to address the issue of interference

"...Canada isn't facing the same problem because wireless providers in the U.S. and Canada use different spectrum for their 5G deployments, and the Canadian government has already put measures in place to address the issue of interference..

...In the U.S., there's a "little bit of a tug of war about who calls the shots" [:rolleyes:] between the aviation industry and telecom industry, and the two are currently in a standoff....

...Gradek said U.S. wireless providers use so-called C-band spectrum – the airwaves on which wireless signals travel – which is in the 3700 MHz range and above.

In Canada, telecoms are currently using 3500 MHz spectrum for their 5G rollouts. Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada (ISED) put out regulations that included mitigation measures for that spectrum back in November, said David Farnes, general manager of the Radio Advisory Board of Canada...

He said after the 3500 MHz spectrum was auctioned off last year, "as this issue of potential interference was emerging or getting louder, the department quickly held a consultation and made the decision to impose more restrictive measures on the telecom operators,..."

That includes establishing an exclusion zone near airports, "meaning you can't turn on an antenna near an airport," and rules about how antennas can be tilted..."​
 
In the 1980s we learned that the Russians had weaponized microwave transmissions to confuse and disable the flight control computer on the UH-60. We grounded the fleet until a shielding fix for all Blackhawks could be completed. It was a very high priority modification during that time. I'm sure the POTENTIAL interference problem between telecom networks and aviation will be resolved.
 
I just had a service man for my home security system stop by this morning to upgrade it to 5G. I had no idea that was necessary, but the service guy told me that it was. And I live less than two miles from the San Antonio Airport.
 
This is not the only 5G screw up. The FCC sold the band near 22 GHz to the cell companies for infrastructure links. That band is where the radiometers on weather satellites sense atmospheric water, as H2O creates an absorption spike at that frequency. The older weather satellites don't have tight enough filters to block out the 5G signals so may be rendered useless for that particular purpose. I don't know how many radio frequency experts work at the FCC, but I suspect it is not enough.
 
LVSteve said:
This is not the only 5G screw up. The FCC sold the band near 22 GHz to the cell companies for infrastructure links. That band is where the radiometers on weather satellites sense atmospheric water, as H2O creates an absorption spike at that frequency. The older weather satellites don't have tight enough filters to block out the 5G signals so may be rendered useless for that particular purpose. I don't know how many radio frequency experts work at the FCC, but I suspect it is not enough.
Click to expand...
Every once in a while I get the impression that we are developing technology at a rate that exceeds our ability to control it and we end up playing "catch-up."
 
Retired W4 said:
The National Business Aviation Assoc. (NBAA) as well as major carriers (FAR part 121 and 125) are rightly concerned about interference of the C-Band's proximity to the frequencies used buy radar altimeters used in commercial aviation. The radar altimeter not only tells the pilot his actual height above the ground (at lower altitudes) but it is also tied into several other systems, such as Autoland, TAWS, EGPWS, HUD, EFVS, etc. which are all safety enhancing systems. If needed, do a search on the acronyms.

The last I heard, AT&T and Verizon have agreed to lower the power of cell towers in the vicinity of about 78 airports in the hope of reducing interference with these aircraft systems. Best of luck with LifeFlight helicopters and at smaller airports that cater to business/corporate aviation.




"This subject is way to complex to cover in this forum, however the information is out there for those who are interested.
Click to expand...
"

You are kidding right? Ain't NOTHING too complex for this forum. As proof, just look up BIGFOOT! I rest my case.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
 
Did you all notice that this issue/problem is airplane model specific. Most Boeing planes for example have no issue with the USA 5G - except the 777.
The radio altimeters in most planes employ electronics that filters the 5G signals. Was this just dumb luck or was the issue understood but not addressed by the airlines?
 
I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.............

The above comment used to be kinda funny, not anymore. :-(

Have a blessed day,

Leon
 
I once had a friend who was a commercial pilot, and I asked him why they always made us turn off our cellphones, tablets, etc. in planes. I asked him just how much interference could a cellphone do?

He gave me the best answer I have heard so far - it wasn't the amount of interference ONE cellphone could do, it was the amount of interference A FEW HUNDRED cellphones - all stuffed into a metal tube - could do! :eek:
 
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