Should very large handgun magazines be heavily regulated

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We're talking about laws, and all laws are compromises. That's how it works.

But anti-gun activists getting outvoted depends on public sentiment and political pressure. If you lose public favor by being what is perceived by a large majority as unreasonable, then the goodwill built over the past 30-35 years disappears and you start losing the only negotiations that matter, those in statehouses and Congress.
 
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I really don't know why I even try to engage you on these topics. You've shown your stripes so many times. Ex LEO who doesn't really support the 2nd Amendment for us unwashed civilians due to all you've seen on the job.
You've become another one of the "I support the 2nd Amendment BUT..." types - just like so many on the left.
That is their favorite line.
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs an AR-15?
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs more than 30 round magazines?
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs more than 10 round magazines?
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs the next thing, then the next thing, then the next... it never ends.
Gun rights get taken one incremental step at a time.
How do you think those "jurisdictions with overly restrictive gun laws" got that way? They didn't just one day 20 or 30 years ago up and pass ALL of their restrictive laws in one fell swoop. They did it a little bit at a time law after law, year after year.
If we take your approach the whole COUNTRY will be under those same kinds of overly restrictive gun laws.
THAT is what this forum is about. Making each other aware of what is going on, what the other side is trying to do, and mobilizing people to oppose it.
It isn't about promoting their ideas.
 
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With respect to those of differing opinions, the issue here isn't our "rights", or, more correctly, what we think our rights are. Second Amendment issues are political issues, decided in legislative bodies or courts, and sometimes the voting booth. We have to understand that.

The challenge for us is persuading those who have the authority to make and interpret laws, that we are reasonable people whose positions are reasonable. This has the dual effect of making us sympathetic, and putting the "extremist" label on our opponents.

When I was younger, I was very politically active, mostly on motorcycling and motoring issues. I am a Life Member not only of the NRA, but of the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) and the National Motorists Association (NMA). I spent many hours in Annapolis, and some in Washington, lobbying and testifying on legislation.

Do you guys remember the National Maximum Speed Limit of 55 miles per hour? The NMA was founded in 1982 to repeal that law, and I was involved in that effort almost from its inception.

When I was lobbying and testifying (as a volunteer, not a paid lobbyist) for the repeal of the Double Nickle, I never, not once, took the bait when somebody would say to me "Well, I guess you don't think we really need speed limits, do you?" I always said that I wanted to empower transportation engineers to do their jobs, and set speed limits in accordance with their professional standards. Who could argue with that? It's a rational and reasonable position to take, and ultimately it won the day.

Well, I can easily make an argument in support of magazines that a rifle or pistol was originally designed to use. I can make an argument in support of magazines that I'll see at my rifle club, or in videos from Camp Perry, or in use by the military. I can point out that those very same mags are used every day by law abiding citizens for recreational shooting or self-defense, and that the Second Amendment clearly encompasses them.

I can easily defend the drum magazines for a Thompson, or the snail magazines for a Luger, as historically significant items that are of interest to collectors, and of no interest or value to criminals.

I cannot defend the pistol mags which sparked this discussion, nor can I defend accessories like bump stocks, which -- let's be honest here -- have no purpose but to get around federal firearms laws.

In this debate, I would we rather be seen as reasonable and rational, and the anti-gun folks as the extremists they are. We are in a longterm struggle for survival of the Second Amendment, and if we want to prevail, we have to be smart. That doesn't mean we have to "compromise" with the people who want to ban all firearms; it does mean we ought to pick our battles wisely, and not defend the indefensible.

If you've read this far, thanks. :)
 
With respect to those of differing opinions, the issue here isn't our "rights", or, more correctly, what we think our rights are. Second Amendment issues are political issues, decided in legislative bodies or courts, and sometimes the voting booth. We have to understand that.

The challenge for us is persuading those who have the authority to make and interpret laws, that we are reasonable people whose positions are reasonable. This has the dual effect of making us sympathetic, and putting the "extremist" label on our opponents.

When I was younger, I was very politically active, mostly on motorcycling and motoring issues. I am a Life Member not only of the NRA, but of the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) and the National Motorists Association (NMA). I spent many hours in Annapolis, and some in Washington, lobbying and testifying on legislation.

Do you guys remember the National Maximum Speed Limit of 55 miles per hour? The NMA was founded in 1982 to repeal that law, and I was involved in that effort almost from its inception.

When I was lobbying and testifying (as a volunteer, not a paid lobbyist) for the repeal of the Double Nickle, I never, not once, took the bait when somebody would say to me "Well, I guess you don't think we really need speed limits, do you?" I always said that I wanted to empower transportation engineers to do their jobs, and set speed limits in accordance with their professional standards. Who could argue with that? It's a rational and reasonable position to take, and ultimately it won the day.

Well, I can easily make an argument in support of magazines that a rifle or pistol was originally designed to use. I can make an argument in support of magazines that I'll see at my rifle club, or in videos from Camp Perry, or in use by the military. I can point out that those very same mags are used every day by law abiding citizens for recreational shooting or self-defense, and that the Second Amendment clearly encompasses them.

I can easily defend the drum magazines for a Thompson, or the snail magazines for a Luger, as historically significant items that are of interest to collectors, and of no interest or value to criminals.

I cannot defend the pistol mags which sparked this discussion, nor can I defend accessories like bump stocks, which -- let's be honest here -- have no purpose but to get around federal firearms laws.

In this debate, I would we rather be seen as reasonable and rational, and the anti-gun folks as the extremists they are. We are in a longterm struggle for survival of the Second Amendment, and if we want to prevail, we have to be smart. That doesn't mean we have to "compromise" with the people who want to ban all firearms; it does mean we ought to pick our battles wisely, and not defend the indefensible.

If you've read this far, thanks. :)
OK, specific example. I have a Marlin Camp 9. It takes the same mags as my S&W M59. I have a couple of 20 and 30 round mags for it - which consequently can also be used in my M59.
The aren't "stock" mags - they are aftermarket high capacity mags. So where do they fall under your definitions? Defensible? Indefensible?
 
OK, specific example. I have a Marlin Camp 9. It takes the same mags as my S&W M59. I have a couple of 20 and 30 round mags for it - which consequently can also be used in my M59.
The aren't "stock" mags - they are aftermarket high capacity mags. So where do they fall under your definitions? Defensible? Indefensible?

Good question. Nothing is carved in stone here. (I regularly point out to anti-gunners that the dreaded AR15 and the Mini-14 are functionally identical, but only one gets labelled as an "assault weapon".)

A lot of this is situational, and depends upon what's perceived as being "reasonable". Since you asked, I would say that you having a 30 round mag in your Camp Carbine is defensible. Carrying a pistol in your car with that mag in it would be a lot harder to defend.

I'm very sympathetic to your position...really. I'm just trying to emphasize that digging in our heels and shouting "NO COMPROMISE" isn't going to do us any good. We have to be smart about this, and not play into the hands of those who would dismiss us all as "gun nuts".
 
Good question. Nothing is carved in stone here. (I regularly point out to anti-gunners that the dreaded AR15 and the Mini-14 are functionally identical, but only one gets labelled as an "assault weapon".)

A lot of this is situational, and depends upon what's perceived as being "reasonable". Since you asked, I would say that you having a 30 round mag in your Camp Carbine is defensible. Carrying a pistol in your car with that mag in it would be a lot harder to defend.

I'm very sympathetic to your position...really. I'm just trying to emphasize that digging in our heels and shouting "NO COMPROMISE" isn't going to do us any good. We have to be smart about this, and not play into the hands of those who would dismiss us all as "gun nuts".
...and THERE'S the rub. Who gets to define "defensible vs indefensible"? If you "compromise" folks have your way both my 20 and 30 round mags for my Camp 9 go away - because they can also be used in the M59 which I also own. Just like owning a full auto sear and an AR-15 makes me a felon because I "could" make my AR-15 full-auto. Not that I have - but that I could. My criminal intent is assumed.

If your definition of being SMART means continuing to "compromise" (a.k.a. let the 2nd Amendment opponents have their way) then I'm dead set against it.
 
...and THERE'S the rub. Who gets to define "defensible vs indefensible"? If you "compromise" folks have your way both my 20 and 30 round mags for my Camp 9 go away - because they can also be used in the M59 which I also own. Just like owning a full auto sear and an AR-15 makes me a felon because I "could" make my AR-15 full-auto. Not that I have - but that I could. My criminal intent is assumed.

If your definition of being SMART means continuing to "compromise" (a.k.a. let the 2nd Amendment opponents have their way) then I'm dead set against it.

I'm truly sorry you either failed or refused to understand, or deliberately ignored, what I've been trying to convey here. I'm even sorrier that you have deliberately misrepresented my sentiments and my position. (I guess I should be thankful you didn't call me a "liberal".) Good night.
 
I'm truly sorry you either failed or refused to understand, or deliberately ignored, what I've been trying to convey here. I'm even sorrier that you have deliberately misrepresented my sentiments and my position. (I guess I should be thankful you didn't call me a "liberal".) Good night.
I think I understand your position pretty clearly. We disagree about whether appeasement in the name of being "reasonable" will work better than "digging in our heels and saying no (MORE) compromise".

22,000 (and climbing) gun laws and restrictions on the books. Criminals still get guns and still commit violent crimes with them every day. But one more that only us law abiding will follow is gonna' fix it.

Good night is right. More like good grief.
 
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With or without guns criminals will and have made normal people's lives a bit more challenging. ;)
Laws don't stop them.

Removing their hands and feet might. :D

Using a Gun or Tae Kwon Do in a violent crime, makes them become eligible to be an organ donor.... immediately..... ask Kazuo Ishiguro.
Should be good for lowering the cost of running prisons as well.
The city government of San Jose could raise money by having replacement part auctions.
Just kidding.
 

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I really don't know why I even try to engage you on these topics. You've shown your stripes so many times. Ex LEO who doesn't really support the 2nd Amendment for us unwashed civilians due to all you've seen on the job.
You've become another one of the "I support the 2nd Amendment BUT..." types - just like so many on the left.
That is their favorite line.
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs an AR-15?
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs more than 30 round magazines?
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs more than 10 round magazines?
I support the 2nd Amendment BUT, who needs the next thing, then the next thing, then the next... it never ends.
Gun rights get taken one incremental step at a time.
How do you think those "jurisdictions with overly restrictive gun laws" got that way? They didn't just one day 20 or 30 years ago up and pass ALL of their restrictive laws in one fell swoop. They did it a little bit at a time law after law, year after year.
If we take your approach the whole COUNTRY will be under those same kinds of overly restrictive gun laws.
THAT is what this forum is about. Making each other aware of what is going on, what the other side is trying to do, and mobilizing people to oppose it.
It isn't about promoting their ideas.

well said.

In Ohio, concealed carry was passed largely due to the efforts of the open carry community. They were harassed, told they were alienating folks, and that they couldn't win.
 
Regardless of your position on the issues at hand,.....I'm impressed that this debate has proceeded this far without getting locked.

Says a lot about all of you.

Proud to share your company.
 
I'd mildly suggest we will lose very often when we pick the wrong fights.

We may lose at times, but we shouldnt pick our fights...we should fight everything, win or lose...fight all of it. In my opinion, our problems can be caused by HOW we fight. For example, I am very unpopular with many on this forum because I think anyone who goes to a gun rights rally carrying an AR and wearing a ninja suit hurts our cause, like some did in VA. I posted a picture of a gun rights rally here one time with hundreds of people wearing orange. Big mistake...I was pounced on and told in no uncertain means that gun rights are not about hunting. On the flip side, legislation proposed here one time would have defined any rifle with a detachable magazine a dreaded "Assault Weapon". When I explained to a friend of mine that his favorite hunting rifle, Remington Woodmaster...yup, detachable magazine, was about to be defined an assault weapon, he immediately got involved and joined the fight. I belong to a gun rights group that boasts no compromise. I have donated to half a dozen states gun groups, most states I will never ever visit. I fight, I fight everything...but I do it in a way that works for me.
 
Absolutely not. Why would I knowingly give up something to those who don't want gun owners to have anything? That is not logical. Gun control people want precisely that, no gun ownership of any kind. No owning firearms, ammunition, magazines/clips/feeding devices and will tell that nobody needs any of it and if it saves just one life it is worth it because they have used that phrase.
 
We will continue to lose as long as there are those among us willing to compromise.

Yep, really this is the main point here.

I can see having to make these elementary points if we were on the Mother Jones message boards, or the Soy Latte Fan Club message boards, but we're on our own gun boards and we have to convince our own enthusiasts!!!???

What the F is going on here?
 
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