what grain for WWII era Enfield .38S&W?

[CRMCDOWELL]

Hi all, First post here for me. I inherited an old WWII era Enfield .38 Local gunsmith said I should look for a 176 grain bullet, but I can't find any. Is it safe to buy a lower grain? THX!

 

[.455_Hunter]

Yes- Current 146 gr ammo will shoot fine, just a bit low.

 

[alwslate]

You’re not going to find any .38 S&W ammo locally that duplicates the WW2 ammo. Forget your “gunsmith”s advice and simply look for standard 146 gr .38 S&W ammo unless you want to take up handloading. And welcome to the forum.

 

[6string]

The British often referred to the 38 S&W as the 38/200.
This designation is indicative of a 200 gr. lead Round Nose bullet.
The actual muzzle velocity of this load using various service revolvers tends to be in the 675-720 fps range.
Like the various .455 service revolver cartridges, the British held to the belief in large, heavy chunks of lead at moderate velocities.

Handloading (and bullet casting!) is the way to go!

 

[Inland7-45]

I have a .38 S&W M&P and a Colt Police Positive also in .38 S&W. I just started reloading for this caliber and have been using a 158 grain cast RN sized to .359 with loading data from Lyman's Cast Bullet Manual.

This is a really fun caliber to load for. Lyman makes a mold for this caliber that will approximate the BSR 38/200 round. I believe that Starline is shipping .38 S&W brass again. If you do not cast your own bullets then purchasing some 146 gr bullets is a good option. If you do not reload at all then the 146 gr ammo from PPU is a good choice if you can find any. My future plans are to buy the Lyman mold for the heavy heavy bullet and duplicate the BSR 38/200 round. I would love to add an Enfield to my collection soon.

 

[Alk8944]

The British designated the cartridge as the .38-200, which would usually indicate a 200 grain bullet, BUT, the cartridge as issued actually had a 160 grain bullet. Currently produced 146 grain ammunition is all you are likely to find unless you take up reloading. Grains is the weight of the bullet. There are 7000 grains per pound averdupois.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I load a flat point 170gr bullet for my Enfield and do sometimes load a box or two of 200gr bullets just because.
Matt's Bullets has the correct 200gr bullet for the Enfield and Webbley revolvers. They also have a nice 150gr bullet for the 38 S&W.
38 Cal. (38 S&W) : Matts Bullets

There is nothing wrong with loading the classic 146gr bullet used in most 38 S&W ammo.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

There was a previous discussion:
Source of .38/200 Ammunition Experience?

 

[gwpercle]

Hi all, First post here for me. I inherited an old WWII era Enfield .38 Local gunsmith said I should look for a 176 grain bullet, but I can't find any. Is it safe to buy a lower grain? THX!

The most common factory loading of 38 S&W now days is a 145 gr. lead round nose load ... some may say 146 or 147 grains but the box of Winchester calls it 145 gr. ( + or - 1 grain it really doesn't matter ) There isn't a lot to choose from ... if it's marked 38 Smith & Wesson ...buy it , it will be safe to fire in WWII era Enfield ...have gunsmith check it over if in dought of shooting condition .
Now ...important ...Save your empty brass cases , they can be reloaded and some day you might want them refilled ... Getting ammo now days is getting harder and harder...

Welcome to the forum from Baton Rouge, Louisiana !

Save Your Brass
Gary
I am assuming you are looking for loaded ammo and not just projectiles(bullets) for reloading ... correct me if I have assumed wrong .

 

[DWalt]

The British called it the .380 Mark 1 or Mark 2 round. Mk 1 had a 200 gr Lead bullet, standard for pre-WW 2. Mk 2 had a 178 gr FMJ bullet, standard for WW 2 and later.

 

[CRMCDOWELL]

THANK YOU

Thanks, everyone, for your wonderful info! Quick follow-up: is it okay to fire a lower grain .38? I can't seem to find many of the 145/6 grains, but have found some ammo that are in the lower 100s grain....THANKS AGAIN!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Sure you can shoot the lighter bullets. There is no reason to worry. It's like the .38 Special, people routinely shoot 110gr, 125gr, 148gr, 158gr and sometimes even heavier bullets.

 

[6string]

The old 200 gr load that I mentioned in post #4, was designed before the Geneva Convention. After that, metal jacketed (non-expanding) bullets were mandated.
All they did to the load was put a copper metal cap over the bullet nose and reduce the bullet weight slightly. The cylindical body of the bullet below the ogive was still plain lead. It might have had a hollow base. I have some original unloaded bullets, and, I think, some old ammo.
This thread is getting pretty interesting, I'll have to dig that stuff up....

By the way, I remember back in the early 80s when I was living in Toronto, Ontario, the big sporting goods store, Le Baron's, sold a lot of cool surplus arms.
They had WWII surplus Webley "break top" 38 S&W "double action only" revolvers for sale @ $44.95 each.

 

[gerhard1]

I have a .38 S&W M&P and a Colt Police Positive also in .38 S&W. I just started reloading for this caliber and have been using a 158 grain cast RN sized to .359 with loading data from Lyman's Cast Bullet Manual.

This is a really fun caliber to load for. Lyman makes a mold for this caliber that will approximate the BSR 38/200 round. I believe that Starline is shipping .38 S&W brass again. If you do not cast your own bullets then purchasing some 146 gr bullets is a good option. If you do not reload at all then the 146 gr ammo from PPU is a good choice if you can find any. My future plans are to buy the Lyman mold for the heavy heavy bullet and duplicate the BSR 38/200 round. I would love to add an Enfield to my collection soon.

Does your Colt have RHKP on the backstrap, a tropical finish* and a lanyard loop?



* parkerizing

 

[STORMINORMAN]

And then there's the Buffalo Bore 125gr hardcast load @ 926fps out of a 4" barrel...!

They specifically mention the Enfield as being one of the top break revolvers that are suitable for this round.

Cheers!

 

[DWalt]

Reloading is indicated if you plan to shoot it more than little bit, due to .38 S&W ammunition cost and availability problems. If you reload, you can use any bullet design and weight you wish (.358 lead bullets will work fine). However, as you seem to have a top-break Enfield revolver, I would advise keeping handloads on the mild side. For use in a strong K-frame S&W, you can easily duplicate 9mm/.38 Special factory-level ballistic performance.

My personal favorite .38 S&W handload uses 125 grain truncated cone .358 lead bullets, identical to standard 9mm load performance.

 

[DWalt]

All they did to the load was put a copper metal cap over the bullet nose and reduce the bullet weight slightly. The cylindical body of the bullet below the ogive was still plain lead. It might have had a hollow base.

The British standard issue .380 Mark 2 bullet was a FMJ, not metal capped and not having a hollow base. There were two slight variations, i.e., the post-WWII bullet was slightly different from earlier ones as it had one shallow cannelure on it. Earlier bullets had two. Purpose unknown. I do not know if the .380 Mark 2 bullets made by other commonwealth countries (Australia, Canada, South Africa, India, etc.) differed from those made in the mother country, but it is certainly possible.

 

[Biggfoot44]

What DWalt said as to background .

Massively oversimplified :

Even though same ctg case at similar pressures :

In USA , the * .38S&W * was traditionally a 145 gr ( sometimes 146) RN , dating to 1876 . ( And * .38 Colt New Police * is identical to .38S&W , except Colt could not bring themselves to stamp the S&W on a Colt revolver .)

In Britain , the * .38/ 200 * was originally 200 gr RN , and evolved as outlined above .

( I'm not mentioning Super Police in this thread to avoid confusion .)

Yes , you may safely fire any SAAMI spec .38 S&W in your gun , albeit the POI will be significantly low .

 

[Dave_n]

I had a local "bullet Smith make me a 200 grain 0.361 round nose that I use for all of my 38 S&W revolvers, Webleys, Enfields and S&Ws (from 1940 on). Works well. Dave_n

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

I know of a 'tin' of original ammo, thought it was 200 gn but I have stayed away from it because I figure corrosive primers?? I am not a collector, I just shoot. I load several for this, including my birth year Victory, ;1944' my load for my hammerless guns is some what milder.