Practice with what you carry conversation got me thinking - UPDATE

[Grimjaws]

News shows the mass shooting that took place in a Tops supermarket in Buffalo. I have shopped there before and know many who do. Not sure yet who the victims are yet but I'm pretty sure my wife or I will know some of them.

This has me rattled. I posted about the j frames as my primary EDC. Now I'm thinking what chance would I have if my wife and I are shopping and all I had was the 5 shot j frame.

I have always been a revolver guy. I have two semi autos - Glock 19 and Ruger SR22. I am now thinking that j frame should be a BUG and my primary should be some sort of autoloader. In NY we are limited to 10 rounds so carrying a Glock 19 without the benefit of more rounds makes a sub compact make more sense. I am going to a buddy's house to look at his setup and hold a few like the Sig 365 and Hellcat and Ruger Max.

More importantly I need training! It's one thing to shoot 5 rounds and reload at the range but another to understand use of cover, reloading under stress and even some first aid skills. Shooting at some paper plates doesn't really seem that important any more.

This close to home ripped off the bandaid - I am now sure that I am not prepared for such a scenario. I admit that I think I was safe because I carry and that somehow having a gun will scare off attackers. This psycho executed people.

I need more training both in situational awareness and combat style shooting. Hitting paper at a set range target shooting ain't gonna cut it. I am also under gunned. 5 rounds seems inadequate now. I have very little experience using the Glock as I only bring it to the range once in awhile and I'm a lousy shot with it.

I am reaching out to my FFL for some one on one training and gonna push the club for IDPA matches. Then I need to find out how to get better with the Glock or if another pistol may help with my familiarity with the revolver trigger pull.

Some may say to calm down, you're doing a lot of what if or panicking but this has really got me upset.
____________
Interesting conversation the other day. My FFL also does pistol training and has some decent shooting credentials and has been doing all kinds of training courses since I've known him.
The other day he was doing a course with his church safety team (6 guys) and I happened to be at the range and overheard this.

Gary (FFL) - what guns did you bring today?

The group - semi autos of various makes

Gary - Are these the guns you would carry to our church or your daily carry?

Two guys replied that they brought range guns NOT their usual carry guns. One guy said he carries a j frame in his pocket but brought his Sig P320.

Gary made some common sense (to me) observations.
Training with a range gun may help you with learning to shoot - aiming, sighting, trigger control, reloading to develop a baseline skill set BUT using a range gun for active shooter type training or CCW training won't help you as much as if you used your daily carry gun. You really need to train and practice with the gun you would be carry in the event of an incident. Different trigger, sights, recoil, mechanics, etc. should be worked on for muscle memory along with understanding your guns advantages and disadvantages.

He turns to the j frame guy and said training with the Sig is much different then the j frame. You have more ammunition in the Sig, a longer sight picture, three dot night sights versus blue fixed sights, different reloading technique and different trigger action. The j frame is easier to conceal, not finicky about the ammunition it shoots and has been a proven design used by law enforcement and civilians alike. Some thoughts - 5 shots can go fast so you'll need to practice reloading. If you pocket carry you'll need to stand up or shift to the side to draw when seated in the church - an IWB which is also a popular carry method offers better access when seated as an example

Lots of discussion ensued and you could see some light bulbs come on.

To be honest I go to the range to target shoot and plink and always run a few cylinders through my snub nose EDC. But this has got me thinking. For the summer I decided I'm going to leave my full size range guns at home and just focus on the model 60 no dash snub I carry. I've been losing a little weight so also gonna look at an IWB as I pocket carry. I've grown up on revolvers (my first one was a model 19 way back in the day) and I've run through various guns over the years but prefer to carry a j frame.

I may post my progress. The range I go to has 7 yard, 10 yard and 20 yard pistol stations. I will focus on using the 10 yard and only use double action. My targets will be two normal sized paper dinner plates - since it is an outdoor range I tape some plates to a piece of cardboard which I then tape over the target stand - when I'm done no need to remove staples or unpeel the targets off the plywood just remove the piece of cardboard with the targets!

I will then practice reloading with both an HKS speed loader and strips. I will start each time with 5 shots stationary on the left plate, reload and 5 shots on the right plate (if possible, I'd like to add some movement after the reload but that will depend on how many people are on the range. There is a combat range with steel plates and targets so I may do some work there afterwards but I want to avoid bad habits).

My goal is 50 rounds a session not timed to begin with. I'm interested to see how I do. If I run into any issues or have some concerns Gary said he could join me and give me some pointers.

So zero session is next week and I will post my first attempts. I have no law enforcement or military background just been shooting a bunch of years and this has my curious.

 

[DR505]

This idea seems like basic common sense...I am surprised the church guys didn't know that right off. Maybe I need to get out more?

 

[Hair Trigger]

I'm thrilled to hear of a church that actively embraces firearms carry within its confines. Even in light of the several notable attacks within those sacred locations, it seems most are still more fearful of its congregation carrying than someone from the outside.

As for "practice with what you carry", AFAIC, it's a no-brainer.

Had I been the instructor, I would have mentioned that a shoulder holster is the most accessible from a seated position, a cross draw belt carry being the second best.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

Easy enough for me, as I only have one gun at the moment, my 686-1 4 inch and it does everything well. My only complaint is during summer I have to wear a baggy windbreaker to conceal it.

 

[Grimjaws]

I get it

Easy enough for me, as I only have one gun at the moment, my 686-1 4 inch and it does everything well. My only complaint is during summer I have to wear a baggy windbreaker to conceal it.

That explains your username and avatar too!

 

[Marshal Tom]

Good advice from the instructor and church security team leader of which I am both! I would suggest practicing with what you carry but possibly something with a longer sight radius and easier to reload than a snubby. Also while doing your practice, instead of five on one target, reload and five on the other, switch if up and give firsts to both, then reload and deliver some more to both. Get off the X after taking a shot, MOVE! You might consider placing the targets at different distances since you said that you have that option. Also practice your one handed shooting with both hands. You may have to move someone out of the way or hold on to someone and only have one hand to shoot with.
The other thing to consider is where you are seated in the church and the maximum distance at which you may have to take a shot.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Good advice from the instructor and church security team leader of which I am both! I would suggest practicing with what you carry but possibly something with a longer sight radius and easier to reload than a snubby. Also while doing your practice, instead of five on one target, reload and five on the other, switch if up and give firsts to both, then reload and deliver some more to both. Get off the X after taking a shot, MOVE! You might consider placing the targets at different distances since you said that you have that option. Also practice your one handed shooting with both hands. You may have to move someone out of the way or hold on to someone and only have one hand to shoot with.
The other thing to consider is where you are seated in the church and the maximum distance at which you may have to take a shot.

I found IDPA to be excellent for learning real-world scenarios. I never fell into the competitive mind-set, I went solely for fun and to learn how to move to cover, reloading and decision making while on a clock, and how to make the shots count, while not trying for an X in a circle, but just for the circle itself. Sometimes the 'regular" shooting range is not as friendly for defensive shooting scenarios, unless they are having an event geared for that.

 

[Grimjaws]

I'm guessing here

This idea seems like basic common sense...I am surprised the church guys didn't know that right off. Maybe I need to get out more?

Maybe, in their defense, they normally go to the range with their range guns and saw this as another session. Guess I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I got to give them credit to be the ones to stand up in their house of worship if something happens.

 

[old tanker]

I think it is an excellent idea. Many eons ago when a buddy took me to my first IPSC shoot I wore my EDC Commander in a Dillon holster under a Carhart jacket with a pair of spare mags in a Triple-K mag pouch.

My scores weren't great, but the practice under pressure helped my gunhandling. Fads were tried and discarded. Over time I sorted what worked for me. We got to shooting a club match someplace every weekend. While, realistically, most competitions is just bowling with bullets, at some level shooting with your "duty rig" will make things like moving and reloading things you can do automatically without too much extraneous effort.

 

[Grimjaws]

Alas

I found IDPA to be excellent for learning real-world scenarios. I never fell into the competitive mind-set, I went solely for fun and to learn how to move to cover, reloading and decision making while on a clock, and how to make the shots count, while not trying for an X in a circle, but just for the circle itself. Sometimes the 'regular" shooting range is not as friendly for defensive shooting scenarios, unless they are having an event geared for that.

I would love to do this. Unfortunately the closest club that does this is 90 minutes away. Between work and taking care of elderly parents and life in general I can fit in a trip to the range 20 minutes away about 2-3 a month (all told about 60-70 minutes a session but I'm close by if I need to leave or get called in). Anything longer requires seeing about health care coverage and no issues at work which never ever happens (I work in IT)


I wish my local club would get affiliated with the program and I've been making the suggestion.

 

[03hemi]

I have a large gun collection.
However, I only carry one of two that will fit any clothing I may be wearing that day. A 45acp or 9mm.
Gun-of-the-day could get you killed.

 

[rockquarry]

I have a large gun collection.
However, I only carry one of two that will fit any clothing I may be wearing that day. A 45acp or 9mm.
Gun-of-the-day could get you killed.

Good practical advice, but not something the daily rotators want to hear.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Took some private lessons from my range manager, who simulates firing under stress by "attacking" me with the target trolly from 7 yards.

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[RetCapt]

My EDC is my Glock 26. Although small, this pistol shoots as well and as comfortably as its larger versions. Thus, it can also serve well as a range firearm. J frame Smiths, even with after market grips, do not do well in my large hands.

My Smith 6906, which I parked in lieu of the slightly more compact Glock, is also well suited to range use. Its large double stack grip fits my hand better than any other semi-auto I have ever picked up, so I shoot it very well.

I think there is great value to the idea of 'dance with the one ya' brung' applied to EDC handguns.

What follows may appear inconsistent for California and those who choose to paint everyone who lives in California with the same broad brush.

We live in an isolated area, sparsely populated. Our church congregation is small, and pretty much everyone knows everyone else. I am the only one with a law enforcement background. I am always armed and always sit in the same location, so I can see everything. I have only had one potential problem. Other members pointed him out to me as we came in for the Christmas concert. I situated myself at the rear of the sanctuary where I could watch him closely. He was carrying a small pack, so naturally my focus was on his hands and that pack. After a period of time he became aware that I was watching him. He had ridden his bike 30 miles to our church, but now it was dark. At the end of the concert he said he needed a ride back to town. No way was I going to put him in a vehicle with anyone. I told him he had gotten himself here, it was up to him to figure out how to get back to town. He stayed around in back of the church, just out of sight. I stayed there until the church was locked up and everyone had left. He was still in the area, but no sign of him the next day. Several days later I read in the sheriff's log in the newspaper that he had called the sheriff's department and requested transport back to town. That was not going to happen until he told the dispatcher he had outstanding warrants for his arrest. It turned out he had two felony warrants, although the paper did not state for what or where they had originated.

If he had any ill intent, he had no opportunity.

For the almost 20 years I taught the state-mandated CCW class, I did so in our church. I never kept a dime, so it was a significant fund raiser for the church.

Despite our being in California, none of this is unusual for our very rural and conservative area. People who choose to live in a region such as this tend to be very self-sufficient.

Where we are the 2A still lives, and in fact is revered.

 

[Rustyt1953]

My CC and HD pistols have only been fed ball ammo.

 

[Hair Trigger]

I would love to do this. Unfortunately the closest club that does this is 90 minutes away. Between work and taking care of elderly parents and life in general I can fit in a trip to the range 20 minutes away about 2-3 a month (all told about 60-70 minutes a session but I'm close by if I need to leave or get called in). Anything longer requires seeing about health care coverage and no issues at work which never ever happens (I work in IT)


I wish my local club would get affiliated with the program and I've been making the suggestion.

We have some similar circumstances. I'm retired, but taking care of my 95 year-old mother takes a lot of my free time. The wildlife club of which I am a member does not hold defensive shooting matches, and the pistol range is not set up for them. I have to travel about an hour to the closest range that holds IDPA/USPSA matches, and don't get to as many as I'd like, and most have been stopped due to the pandemic.

All that said, I am loading up now (pardon the pun) to head out to the wildlife club and at least practice proficiency with the two pistols I carry most now. I'll also take a .22 and see if I can hit the X once or twice.

Gratuitous firearms pictures:

 

[Sevens]

Another angle not mentioned is that there is (or should be?) a different mindset for a church security group as opposed to “guy walking his dog that doesn’t want to get mugged.”

If a security group team member brings a J-frame to a fight with a guy who has a subgun, that’s an issue. A guy intent on doing group harm in a church is really a different kind of a threat.

Obviously you still need to be discreet so as a church security group member, you won’t have an 870 slung over your shoulder.

But is a J-frame the choice? Lousy choice compared to a P320.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Another angle not mentioned is that there is (or should be?) a different mindset for a church security group as opposed to “guy walking his dog that doesn’t want to get mugged.”



If a security group team member brings a J-frame to a fight with a guy who has a subgun, that’s an issue. A guy intent on doing group harm in a church is really a different kind of a threat.



Obviously you still need to be discreet so as a church security group member, you won’t have an 870 slung over your shoulder.



But is a J-frame the choice? Lousy choice compared to a P320.

A church security group was taking a course at my range at the same time I was taking the classroom portion of my CC Permit course. They were blasting away using AR's.

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[Doug M.]

Not very practical for the overwhelming majority of settings and circumstances. When I was in LE, I had both a rifle and a shotgun in my car. Circumstances dictate tactics. However, I can't see a situation in a church in which there will be time to get a long gun. It is the other side of the coin from a J frame, which is not a good choice for that setting, either. I agree with the poster above who noted the difference between the dog walker and the church security team. For me, one of my RDS equipped pistols would be the best choice for such a setting.

 

[Smoke]

The security team for my church requires its members to qualify with the gun they carry as a team member.