Old Wheel Gunners Conversion to Semi Auto

[Whit]

As the title infers, I'm an old guy…how I got this old this quick is puzzling! As a young police officer I spent the majority of my time toting an S&W revolver on my Sam Brown belt. That means that I, and guys like me, have considerable trigger time with a DA revolver. Based on that experience, I have reached a conclusion about conversions to semi autos by long in the tooth revolver shooters. I reserve the right to be absolutely wrong…I certainly have been before.

My convoluted logic has determined that moving from the revolver to the DA/SA semi auto makes sense. The former revolver shooter has only one thing to learn, the decocker. We are very familiar with the long pull of the double action shot which is much the same whether performed with a round gun or a bottom feeder. The same with the single action shot, single action is single action. So the DA/SA is very similar to shooting a revolver with regard to the actual firing. It is just the shoving it back in the sheath on the belt that is different. Decock dummy should be easy, even for an old guy to learn.

Many of us would conclude that that long DA pull, in either a revolver or DA/SA pistol, is a deterrent to an AD. Plus some of use just like having a hammer. We also might like the fact that we can reload more rapidly with the DA/SA semi auto that our old 6 shooters, while maintaining the same fire control mechanism.

Certainly there are many of us senior shooters who can be retrained to the "modern" striker fired handguns. But some us are just comfortable with the DA/SA action. Kind of like what legendary football coach Darrel Royal was fond of saying, "dance with what brung ya". So does it make sense for old time revolver shooters to transition to the DA/SA semi auto…some of us think so. No disrespect meant to the fabled Col. Cooper, but I respectfully disagree with his conclusion that the action he termed as "crunch, tick" is not a "solution looking for a problem", but rather a viable, easy transition for a confirmed old revolver shooter.

Which DA/SA is best…the one you like and shoot the best. There is probably not ten cents worth of difference between any of the quality DA/SA semi autos on the market. Kind of like arguing which is better, Ford or Chevrolet…it is a personal decision. So, pick a Sig, Beretta, CZ or Gen 3 S&W, or whatever fits your mitts, and enjoy shooting almost like you did back in the day.

As always, I reserve the right to be wrong and am more often than not. But hopefully I am at least partially correct this time around. After all, it was a difficult transition from call boxes to radios and hand cranked sirens to electronic squealers! Blessings to all.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Personally I have always thought the Glock (and similar) was an easier transition for revolver shooters. My agency (Cal Dept of Corrections) was thinking seriously about the question when I retired 17 years ago. They just finished the conversion last year. They did end up going with Glock. The transition class was only two days, very inadequate IMHO. Then again a hand gun is not a primary weapon for prison cops, we used long guns primarily.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I've always liked the 1911-gun and the High Power. Tried a CZ 75 BD a few years back and found it to be a worthy successor to the High Power.

I will not take the Glock and others of that ilk seriously for any handgun chore. The only Glock here is a 17 and I only acquired it in order to be able to better hate on Glock ... and I do.

 

[wyo-man]

My opinion: You will be well served by a 3rd Gen S&W (you didn't mention your preferred caliber).
I prefer metal over plastic. S&W 3900, 4000, 5900, or 4500 series contain different configurations and sizes.
Let us know what you end up with.

wyo-man

 

[BB57]

…/

/….My convoluted logic has determined that moving from the revolver to the DA/SA semi auto makes sense. The former revolver shooter has only one thing to learn, the decocker. We are very familiar with the long pull of the double action shot which is much the same whether performed with a round gun or a bottom feeder. The same with the single action shot, single action is single action. So the DA/SA is very similar to shooting a revolver with regard to the actual firing. It is just the shoving it back in the sheath on the belt that is different. Decock dummy should be easy, even for an old guy to learn.

Many of us would conclude that that long DA pull, in either a revolver or DA/SA pistol, is a deterrent to an AD. Plus some of use just like having a hammer. We also might like the fact that we can reload more rapidly with the DA/SA semi auto that our old 6 shooters, while maintaining the same fire control mechanism…/
/…

I carried a Ruger Service Six as we were responsible for buying our own revolvers and had to buy one on the approved list. The Service Six was a lot more affordable than a Model 19 or even a Colt Trooper.

But I was a 1911 guy. Given a choice I carried a 1911 and later a Hi Power.

But…fast forward 35 years and I've advanced to various CZ 75 pistols, first in the "B" variants, and then in the decocker equipped "D" variants when I admitted defeat and recognized they just made a lot more sense in that platform.

And that switch to the D variants of the CZ 75 also made it reasonable to also carry a 2 1/2" Model 66 or a 3" Model 686+ when the urge strikes me. The two platforms essentially operate the same way when things go pear shaped and as much as I like modern 9mm hollow points, I like .357 Mag better.

Personally I have always thought the Glock (and similar) was an easier transition for revolver shooters. My agency (Cal Dept of Corrections) was thinking seriously about the question when I retired 17 years ago. They just finished the conversion last year. They did end up going with Glock. The transition class was only two days, very inadequate IMHO. Then again a hand gun is not a primary weapon for prison cops, we used long guns primarily.

I'm in total agreement with the OP that conversion from a DA revolver to a DA/SA or DAO pistol actually made far more sense than conversion to a striker fired Glock.

Glock sold a bunch of Glocks to law enforcement agencies on the premise that with all the safety mechanisms tied to the trigger, it required the absolute minimum training to convert a revolver carrying officer to a Glock. The fact that the premise was false didn't seem to matter, and with almost 40 years of repetition it's taken as fact, even though it's still false.

The real world results of that conversion were not stellar - and still aren't - with officers having negligent discharges on a distressingly frequent basis due to the much shorter and lighter trigger pull relative to a DA revolver.

Many departments nd up ordering them with 12 pound trigger pulls to try to reduce the frequency of the NDs with limited results.

The other argument for striker fired pistols is that officers only have to learn one trigger pull. A DAO pistol however achieves the same goal. But quite frankly if the need to manage a DA and an SA trigger pull is an issue for officers in a department the training standards are already hopelessly low.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Began my firearms experience without any outside influence, just an introduction course at a local range which had me trying every type of handgun. Started with carrying wheelguns, then single action, striker, then DA/SA which was "just right" for me. Took a few years of learning my own preferences to work out which was best for me.


Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

 

[Old cop]

Like others I carried a revolver for the first 20 years of my 30 years on the street. We converted to Glocks, and my former agency still issues the G19 but I'm not aware of problems w/a lot of negligent discharges. One cop did shoot vending machine in HQ but I suspect there might be more to that story than I know.

 

[robertrwalsh]

The vending machine probably had it coming. They are thieves and villains. I shot a computer once. On purpose. It pissed me off. It was fun. I only wounded it.

 

[hyena]

I'll bet it was one of those vending machines with the corkscrew mechanism that turned to (occasionally) drop your purchase.

 

[lkabug]

I have had a love for the model 10 for many decades. Having been issued a
model 10-5 in 1965. I even fanangled a model 15 while in Vietnam. Then, back home again, the model 10-5 was back in my holster as I walked the streets and alleys on my beat. I still have that model 10-5.

But times changed, let's say I matured, like I got old. And the semi-auto just made sense. The transition wasn't that difficult for me, but my pride took a beating. I still carry and shoot the wheel guns. However, the bottom feeders also get their share of range time and self-defense duties. But I'll never forget my first love the model 10-5 .
And, you know, it has never told anyone how scared I was walking down those dark alleys.

 

[Grayfox]

There was a Rangemaster I knew some years back. Retired cop and long time wheelgunner. For most of the many years I knew him, he carried a S&W Model 66. He swore by it and was an excellent shot with it.
One day I showed up at the range and he was wearing a semi-auto! I said "What's up with this!" He smiled and said "DAO, its a 16 shot revolver."

 

[loc n load]

Revolvers to pistols.

Whit, I can relate to your observations. I started in 73 as a foot patrolman in a large metro department armed with a K frame smith that was DAO and 158 gr RN 38's.
I carried a revolver for 15 years, transitioned to a 2nd gen 9mm Smith in DA/SA. By then I had been a F/A instructor for some time, and was involved in training several thousand officers in the new duty weapon. The biggest issue was not the decock, but getting the troops to push the decock lever back up before holstering.
About five years after the transition to DA/SA auto loaders, the brass hats decided to go to DAO pistols, IMO they should have done that initially. Our SWAT & special detail troops kept the DA/SA's.
I retired in 2008, and made a lot of transitions in practically every aspect of our profession in those 35 years, so I totally understand the call box to radios, computers & cell phones.
I still instruct part time at our state LE academy, and smile to myself whenever I step out on the firing range or watch a Defensive tactics class.
I agree with you, find a pistol that works for you, train with it and be competent with it.
Regards.

 

[mscampbell2734]

I started with DA/SA guns, 3rd Gen Smiths and Beretta 92s, then transitioned to Glocks and finally to 1911s.

Most of my early instructors had made the move from revolvers to Beretta. Couple of issues cropped up.

1. As stated before it's not some much using the decocker to decock, it's remembering to put it back up. We had very very strict guidelines about decocking is a TWO part motion, down and up. the decocker is NOT your friend.

2. Trigger control. The vast majority of revolver shooters take their finger completely off the trigger to let it snap forward. Doing that with a DA/SA auto after the first shot will result in the "running finger" trigger slap. After the first shot you have to learn to finesse the trigger because its a short light SA pull. Jeff Cooper called it a two speed trigger.

 

[Old cop]

I started in a large metro police department in 1968, walking a beat w/a Colt OP, a baton & cuffs. We called in from a call box, no portable radios, every hour. Walking those alleys on midnights during the dead of winter was tough. Every now & then the sergeant would come around and let me warm up in his cruiser.

 

[armadillo]

I went through this about 40 years ago. I was very comfortable switching from a DA S&W revolver to a S&W M-39. I still have it, but worked my way to a Sig-Sauer P229 with a few more rounds of ammo.

 

[Faulkner]

As a LE firearms instructor who has helped train many dozens of officers/deputies in the transition from revolver to semi-auto, it is my experience that it is a much more seamless transition from revolver to Glock than it is revolver to DA/SA.

In my personal experience, I started out as a rookie LEO carrying a S&W 586 and loved it. I always had high range scores, averaging above 95%. When we transitioned to semi-autos in around 1998 we first went with the Beretta 92, some 2nd & 3rd generation S&W's, and the H&K USP. All were fine firearms, but overall range scores plummeted with DA/SA semi's. We determined the problem was because of the double action trigger pull 1st round, then the transition to the long take up single action trigger pull with the 2nd round. After two rounds if you went to low ready and dropped the hammer, you had to start over again with the double action pull. This inconsistency in trigger pull causes problems for a lot of people, especially those who don't shoot a lot.

Like some, I thought the Glock platform was ugly, plastic, square, and lacked ergonomics, but the DA/SA guns weren't getting the job done so I was opened minded enough to get with a Glock instructor and gave it a try. Best decision I ever made. The Glock naysayers can complain all they want but they are reliable and have the SAME trigger pull every time, same as a double action revolver, unlike the DA/SA semi auto. My range scores for many years with a Glock average higher than they ever did with my beloved 586.

In my opinion, DA only semi autos are an improvement over DA/SA semi autos, but are more of nod to traditionalist to give them an option over striker fired semi-autos. My observation has been that there are a few folks who transition well from revolver to DA/SA, but a higher percentage struggle with it.

 

[BB57]

…./

/…. The biggest issue was not the decock, but getting the troops to push the decock lever back up before holstering.
About five years after the transition to DA/SA auto loaders, the brass hats decided to go to DAO pistols, IMO they should have done that initially. Our SWAT & special detail troops kept the DA/SA ../

/...

The decock lever snapping back up on its own is one of the things that sold me on the CZ 75 "D" pistols.

—-

For commercial purposes liability issues have made the problem with decocker/safety levers worse.

As far as I can tell Walther pioneered the concept (along with DA/SA operation) on its PP pistol in 1929. However fast forward to our litigious environment here in the US and the manual doesn't say snap it back up, but rather it advises the shooter to leave it down in the "decock/safe" position where it was clearly never designed to be left when carrying the pistol.

Common sense just isn't very common anymore.

 

[Old cop]

My concern about the DA/SA pistols is an officer could re-holster following a shooting & forget to de-cock the weapon. Our department went w/the Glock and never regretted that decision.

 

[oldiegoldie]

My concern about the DA/SA pistols is an officer could re-holster following a shooting & forget to de-cock the weapon. Our department went w/the Glock and never regretted that decision.

true, after a shooting the adrenaline rush doesn't subside immediately. same goes for a 1911.....forgetting to engage the safety. about the only platform that is "safe" is DAO, whether it's a revolver or semi auto. wish Smith would bring out a larger sized Body Guard with 10+1 and a good trigger. Sig produced the P250 subcompact, a DAO, which has a very nice trigger. it's just a little too chubby.

 

[BB57]

true, after a shooting the adrenaline rush doesn't subside immediately. same goes for a 1911.....forgetting to engage the safety. about the only platform that is "safe" is DAO, whether it's a revolver or semi auto. wish Smith would bring out a larger sized Body Guard with 10+1 and a good trigger. Sig produced the P250 subcompact, a DAO, which has a very nice trigger. it's just a little too chubby.

A problem with SA, DA/SA, or a striker fired pistol with all the safeties on the trigger, like a Glock is the potential for an officer after a shoot trying to holster his pistol with his finger still inside the trigger guard. With the heavier and longer trigger pull of a DA trigger, that's much less likely to end in a negligent discharge.

But, it's also a training issue. If you train someone to place their thumb over the front of the hammer with an SA pistol, after putting the safety lever to the safe position, it's both redundant and builds muscle memory for an entirely different grip on the pistol when reholstering.

Similarly, if you train someone to place his or her thumb over the back of the hammer when reholstering a DA revolver, or a DAO pistol or D/A pistol after decocking it, it's again both a very different grip, and they'll feel the hammer already back and have a second chance to catch the failure to decock.

Of course the counter argument is that it takes less training to teach someone to use a Glock. And that's correct if you are willing to either limit it to duty holsters that are hung far enough off the hip to hopefully miss the leg when a negligent discharge occurs, or are willing to accept a certain percentage of Glock legged officers.

Departments that are not experiencing negligent discharges with Glocks are in fact doing more training - on par with the training required for a DA/SA pistol.

That negates the reduced training argument that Glock marketed so many Glocks with.