why are so many commercial 10mm rounds so weak?

[ArchAngelCD]

One of the things wrong in this thread is saying the 40 S&W was created as a downloads and shorter 10mm cartridge. The 40 S&W was developed independently from the 10mm.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

The original flavor was too hot for the guns chambered in it.

If you want a .41 Magnum, an N frame revolver is what you need.

 

[Homie]

Hand load here, 180g RNFP, AA#7, 1226 fps.
It's a 10mm as it should be!

14.0 Gr. AA #9/Sierra 180 HP Averages 1236 FPS.

 

[BB57]

As Sig states, full power 10mm ammo was never issued to agents. A reduced load was developed as an alternative to the .45 ACP and 9mm rounds under consideration.

The FBI’s 10 mm load was reduced as it was felt the recoil and muzzle blast of the full power rounds offset its otherwise excellent performance.

That led to the 180 gr / 950 fps FBI load.

Read it all here:

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/122334NCJRS.pdf


——-

It’s worth noting that the 180 gr 950 fps 10mm load wasn’t far off of the:

- time tested 180 gr 900 fps .38-40 load;
- the 200 gr 870 fps of the .44 Special; or
- the Elmer Keith suggested 200 gr 900 fps law enforcement load for the .41 Magnum.

There’s a reason they all hover around the same numbers - they all offer good terminal ballistic performance with manageable recoil that doesn’t adversely impact accurate shooting by the average law enforcement officer.

 

[smithra_66]

then you should have purchased a 9 or a 40.

I have a 357 revolver. I just shoot light 38 special loads, and practice with magnum loads to only get accustomed to recoil.

You can't really shoot a different caliber in a 10mm auto pistol.

I'm not sure what the issue is. There is a range of power of the factory loads because people like options. You can buy hot to lukewarm (obviously with an auto you can't vary power as much as you can with a revolver).

Whatever you want is available, or better yet, start reloading. For most people, absolute full power 10mm loads are overkill.

 

[reddog81]

It’s worth noting that the 180 gr 950 fps 10mm load wasn’t far off of the:

- time tested 180 gr 900 fps .38-40 load;
- the 200 gr 870 fps of the .44 Special; or
- the Elmer Keith suggested 200 gr 900 fps law enforcement load for the .41 Magnum.

There’s a reason they all hover around the same numbers - they all offer good terminal ballistic performance with manageable recoil that doesn’t adversely impact accurate shooting by the average law enforcement officer.

You left out the ever popular 45 ACP with 200 grain at 900 FPS or 230 at 830.

As noted these level of loads can be controlled by your average shooter and produce adequate results. A more powerful round isn't necessarily a better round.

 

[BB57]

One of the things wrong in this thread is saying the 40 S&W was created as a downloads and shorter 10mm cartridge. The 40 S&W was developed independently from the 10mm.

That’s not entirely true.

The FBI developed the loaded down 180/950 fps 10mm load and then asked S&W to design a pistol for it based on S&W’s large frame 4506 pistol.

S&W did that, developing the S&W 1076, which was introduced in 1990.

However, while developing the 1076 S&W realized there was a lot of empty space in the case and that the same performance could be produced using a shorter case that would fit a medium frame pistol. The resulting S&W 4006 also came out in 1990.

So…yes…the .40 S&W was developed independent of any direct FBI involvement (and the FBI didn’t adopt the .40 S&W until 1997).

However the development of the .40 S&W was prompted by the FBI’s interest in the reduced power 10mm, and its asking S&W to develop a pistol for it, while S&W saw the potential to put a shorter cartridge with the same performance into a medium frame revolver.

In short, the .40 S&W wouldn’t have become a thing without the FBI developing the reduced power 10 mm load and S&W thinking there was a market for a medium frame friendly version.

S&W wasn’t wrong, but the AWB in 1994 and the various state imposed 10 round magazine limits that followed definitely helped .40 S&W popularity. The logic was that if couldn’t have more than 10 rounds of 9mm, you might as well have 10 larger rounds of .40 S&W in the same size pistol.

 

[BB57]

You left out the ever popular 45 ACP with 200 grain at 900 FPS or 230 at 830.

As noted these level of loads can be controlled by your average shooter and produce adequate results. A more powerful round isn't necessarily a better round.

I probably should have included the .45 ACP as well since I stepped away from .40 caliber and included the .44 Special.

But yes, exactly the same principle - and that’s why the .45 Super and similar rounds don’t impress me.

 

[Nevada Ed]

In 1989 the FBI, did try out the 10mm that was said to have 708 ft/lbs of energy, but

It finally had to pass on this load with excessive recoil, in order for "All" of it's Agents, to be able to Qualify at the range test, that had a over sized grip, that caused a problem with many of their shooters.

 

[sigp220.45]

In 1989 the FBI, did try out the 10mm that was said to have 708 ft/lbs of energy, but

It finally had to pass on this load with excessive recoil, in order for "All" of it's Agents, to be able to Qualify at the range test, that had a over sized grip, that caused a problem with many of their shooters.

Sigh. It never ends.

 

[BillBro]

This is precisely why I do not buy any loaded 10mm ammoexcept Underwood, and precious few of those.
Sig 180gr practice stuff is pretty stout along with Federal American Eagle. Other than those two I dont buy any, I load my own. You wont find many 200gr 10mm loads at 1200fps or 1250 or 1300fps on the shelves anywhere.
I load them all too, 135gr all the way to 220gr. Personal preference is the 200gr but the 180's can smoke too.
The availability of weak for caliber amm9 might be why so many just dont like the 10mm, I dont know. They dont really know the 10mm if thats all theyre shootung through theirs.

 

[ProCarryNAustin]

“You can't really shoot a different caliber in a 10mm auto pistol.”
Not exactly true.
I have shot a lot of .40 out of a Glock 20. Like 38 out of a 357, scrub it out before going back to 10mm.
If that makes you nervous, plenty of conversion barrels.
For me, 400 ftlbs to 600ftlbs gives good flexibility of range.
Plenty for self defense at the low end. Good woods caliber at the higher end. I hear the same griping about 44 mag.
YMMV

 

[sigp220.45]

Yep. I had a 1076 and it shot .40 just fine.

 

[mscampbell2734]

I was an early adopter of 10mm in the 80s and among the people I shot with it had a reputation for breaking guns. Particularly converted 45s like the Springfield Omega 10mm I had that broke twice before I traded it for a S&W 610. I remember reading in a gun magazine back then that the original ammo from Norma was loaded to much higher pressures, somewhere in the 43,000 PSI range. That early ammo actually did come pretty close to the advertised velocity. SAAMI saw all the broken guns and went with a reduced pressure limit. Norma never changed the numbers on the box but reduced the pressure. I haven't seen that anywhere online so it might have been pure speculation but it matches what I was seeing at the time.

This is my understanding as well. D&D, the developers of the original Bren 10, shopped around for an ammo maker and Norma was the only one to step up. D&D spec'd 200 gr at 1200 fps fully expecting something like 200 gr at 1100 fps.

Only problem was Norma delivered on the original spec and the ammo gained a reputation of beating the guns to death.

 

[BillBro]

Because many people want the ILLUSION of power more than they want the RECOIL that comes with ACTUAL power.

They can brag about their powerful gun while enjoying comfortable shooting.

I guess then that those people are too dense to realize that comfortable shooting does not equal power in the handgun world.

 

[BillBro]

14.0 Gr. AA #9/Sierra 180 HP Averages 1236 FPS.

What length barrel? 12.1gr of A9 and a 200gr Nosler jhp gets me an 1172fps avg. Im shooting a 5"1911. You? Thx

 

[Lonestar57]

I still have some of the original good stuff.

 

[JacobNDeluca]

On the lower level, you can blame the FBI. They adopted the 10 mm, but it was a reduced loading that the .40 S&W later equalled. Since the FBI ammo contract was big, and a lot of departments that jumped on the band wagon copied them exactly, a major chunk of the 10 mm ammo production was, ah, 10 mm Special.

Before we phased the 10mm out in 2006, the only ammo we could get in quantity was the FBI load. Then we couldn't even get that.

Yes, you are right.

 

[65Whelen]

Because many people want the ILLUSION of power more than they want the RECOIL that comes with ACTUAL power.

They can brag about their powerful gun while enjoying comfortable shooting.

Just like Inspector Callahan.

I like the 10mm because at the low end it's a good self defense round and at the high end a good hunting/woods round as someone else previously pointed out. Before the 10mm you could only get this magnum power readily available in revolver. Now I've got fifteen rounds of magnum power as my everyday carry.

 

[44wheelman]

Unsupported chambers, guns that drop mags….the world isn’t ready for real 10mm loads.

Brother had a 1006 many years ago…. .41mag 215gr lead swc bullets sized down to .401 over a compressed load of blue dot. That gun rocked. You wanna stick that load in a Glock or Delta Elite or m&p? Maybe one of the Peter Stahl guns.