What? Wash your mouth out with soap. I'm not changing my screen name to Digitaldollar!!!
Tracking credit card gun purchases
- Thread starter Rpg
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What? Wash your mouth out with soap. I'm not changing my screen name to Digitaldollar!!!
pacific234
BANNED Scammer !! SCAMMER !! SCAMMER !! SCAMMER !!
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To buy firearms keep getting complicated by the day... What a joke.
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John Feinblatt, president of Everytown for Gun Safety, welcomed ISO's decision, which was announced on Friday, and said it's now crucial for this to be implemented thoroughly.
"Today's announcement is a critical first step towards giving banks and credit card companies the tools they need to recognize dangerous firearm purchasing trends – like a domestic extremist building up an arsenal – and report them to law enforcement," he said in a statement shared with the Guardian.
"Today's announcement is a critical first step towards giving banks and credit card companies the tools they need to recognize dangerous firearm purchasing trends – like a domestic extremist building up an arsenal – and report them to law enforcement," he said in a statement shared with the Guardian.
Just bought a case of 9's via CC. Terrorist?
smoothshooter
Member
Hand basket? Hell's bells!
They are in the process of loading it into a WallyWorld shopping cart.
Why do you think it will not happen in your lifetime?
Events move fast nowadays.
In no more than 5 years we will all be using digital currency as required.
Puller
Member
Public enemy #1.
Cash isn't going away anytime soon. There are those in government who would love to see this happen, but they don't even have the support to eliminate pennies.
Not in 5 years, not in 10 years, maybe 20 years. Many of us won't be around to see it.
Yes, it will be come more common, Google Pay, Apple Pay Venmo and other such apps.
But, maybe we'll have to go back to the barter system.
I'll trade you 2 pigs for that cow. I need milk.
IronSkillet
Member
Completely agree with you're statement, what I have always wondered along similar subject matter is: With credit and debit card growth since the 1980's through realtime today how much actual currency has the Fed been able to remove from circulation or maybe repurpose?
Following this thread I believe many people are out of date with "if I use cash no-one will knoW". Technology has changed enough along with reporting laws, it used to be take $3K out of the bank in cash and it was reported, pretty sure that amount has been reduced few years back. Not trying to Jack Carr up the thread most of never knowingly allow ourselves to be cross with the law, yes it may happen from time to time. But it all boils down to this "there is no privacy for anything you do today" so play buy the rules and play smarter.
He's a little behind the times. Visa and Mastercard were sued in 2005 for imposing contractual prohibitions against merchants adding a surcharge to offset credit card fees.
In 2013 they settled the class action law suit and did away with those prohibitions which then allowed merchants in 40 states to add a surcharge to cover the fees to the sale price, or alternatively to give a "discount" for cash payment.
In 2015, the courts over turned the laws in the remaining 10 states the had statutory provisions banning surcharges.
So…since 2013 or 2015 depending on where he's located he's legally been able to pass those credit card fees on to the customers.
Now…he is correct that over the years those fees have increased over time with Visa and Mastercard both threatening another increase in the near future.
There are three types of fees;
- An interchange fee, paid directly to the card company for each swipe and this can range from 1.15% + $.05 per transaction to 2.4% and $.10 per transaction based on the business owners industry and type of sales (retail store front versus on line). On line sales have higher fraud rates and thus higher fees, and some industries have higher fraud rates than others, and thus higher fees.
- A payment processor fee, that varies based on what company you use and they type of transaction. For example National Processing charges 0.14% + $0.07 for retail sales and 0.29% + $0.15 for on line sales. Helcim charges 0.37% + $0.08 for retail sales and 0.53% + $0.25 for on line sales.
- An assessment fee. For example, Visa may charge a monthly fee based on volume and on average it's about 0.14%, and National Processing charges a $9.95 monthly fee. Helcim doesn't charge an assessment fee, but their per transaction fees are a little higher
Worst case all of that and you have 2.69% plus $.25 per transaction, plus a fixed cost of $9.95 per month to be able to process credit cards through National Processing and 2.77% and $0.35 per transaction for Helcim.
There are also are payment processors that take care of the interchange fee and just bundle all three fees into a single transaction fee. For example they may charge 2.99% + $0.49 for retail sales and 3.49% + $0.49 for on line sales.
What route a merchant chooses and what processor they select will depend on how large their average transactions are and how much business they do per month. I have very large transactions but they are low volume and seasonal, with some months having no transactions at all. A local gun shop will have a wider range of transactions, a lot more volume and a lot of transactions each month, so what makes sense for them might be different.
—-
So…if I am a customer and purchase a S&W revolver for $800 the local gun shop will probably add a 3.5% surcharge. That adds $28.00 to the price.
Is it worth it? That depends. If I am buying on GB and the seller has:
- a three day return policy that starts the minute Fed Ex delivers it to the FFL I am using;
- it doesn't get logged in for 3 days;
- I don't get notified it's there for another day;
- it turns out it is not at all what it was represented to be; and
- the seller says "sorry, it's past the 3 day return window", even though I rushed down to the shop and inspected it 15 minutes after I was notified it had arrived;
that $28 is cheap insurance as I can contest the charge, return it and get all my money back, except the return shipping. If the seller has a sketchy history of contested claims Visa will also immediately freeze his account until the claim is settled.
For that reason, I always pay by credit card when buying something on line. If the seller indicates he only takes postal money orders I give it a hard pass as you have absolutely no recourse with a Postal money order if the seller doesn't deliver as advertised or even doesn't deliver at all.
On the other hand, if it's a local gun store purchase $28 is a waste of money compared to a check or going down to the bank to get cash if they don't take a check.
It also gets problematic for the vendor if they charged me 3.5%, or $28 when their actual costs may be the 0.14% interchange fee plus the retail 2.4% + $.07 processing fee, plus about $.02 for that transaction's share of the monthly assessment fee, for a total of $22.86. That extra $5.14 in surcharge is taxable income, not an expense. It's only $5 on this sale, but with 100 similar sales in a month it's $500 per month and $6000 per year in unreported income. If the vendor ever gets audited and their accounting isn't taking actual fees into consideration, the state and or feds are going to want their money plus some possibly significant penalties.
That's one reason I use a processor with bundled fixed per transaction fees. The actual fee goes into the spreadsheet for each sale and the customer is charged the exact cost of the fee.
——
One of the dangers in tracking gun store purchases separately is that credit card companies and or payment processors could decide to massively hike the fees they charge with the excuse that gun and ammo sales come with potential liability if the use of the card can be attached to the purchase of the gun and or ammo used in a homicide.
I suspect that will happen. The percentage of guns used in homicides is incredibly low. There are roughly 10,000 gun homicides per year and over 300 million guns in the US is 1 in 30,000 guns total. There are roughly 20 million guns purchased each year and if each of those 10,000 homicides was committed with 10,000 different guns and all of them were newly purchased it's still only 1 in 2000. But if a credit card company can make a couple more percent off every sale made by a gun store (guns, ammo, cleaning supplies, camouflaged coolers, Elmer Fudd hats, whatever, it adds up to a lot of money for the credit card company.
DWalt
Member
The credit card thing has me mystified. Just who is supposed to be monitoring all those millions of transactions every day, and how can it be determined exactly what is being purchased? And if something dangerous, who is supposed to make that determination, and on what basis, and to whom will it be be reported? And who will take any further action deemed necessary? And what kind of response?
Seems very clear to me that the plan is to ultimately force a ban through intimidation on using any credit card to purchase anything gun or shooting related, thereby indirectly destroying firearms retailing. No paranoia needed - it's all right out there for all to see.
Seems very clear to me that the plan is to ultimately force a ban through intimidation on using any credit card to purchase anything gun or shooting related, thereby indirectly destroying firearms retailing. No paranoia needed - it's all right out there for all to see.
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If 'them and they' check my credit cards purchase and want to talk about it, them and they can call or come by. If there's neither subpoena nor warrant, I'll decide if I'd like to visit based on how I feel at the moment.
Shakespeare was right - much ado about nothing.
Shakespeare was right - much ado about nothing.
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Banks,, businesses and individuals are required to report cash transactions of $10,000 or more to the IRS. It's been that way for decades and I'm not aware of any reductions in the amount. If anyone has info to the contrary, I'd love to know more about it.
Starting this year, electronic payments from sites like PayPal and eBay will trigger a 1099-K if the annual total exceeds $600. It was previously $20,000 AND 200 or more individual transactions. Withdrawing $600 from your bank won't trigger a thing.
I wonder how many in-store cash purchases per hour are recorded on store security videos.
IronSkillet
Member
Required Records for Sales of Monetary Instruments for Cash
Treasury regulation 31 CFR 103.29 prohibits financial institutions from issuing or selling monetary instruments purchased with cash in amounts of $3,000 to $10,000, inclusive, unless it obtains and records certain identifying information on the purchaser and specific transaction information. Monetary instruments include bank checks, bank drafts, cashier's checks, money orders, and traveler's checks. Furthermore, the identifying information of all purchasers must be verified. The following information must be obtained from a purchaser who has a deposit account at the financial institution:
• Purchaser's name;
• Date of purchase;
• Type(s) of instrument(s) purchased;
• Serial number(s) of each of the instrument(s)
purchased; and
• Amounts in dollars of each of the instrument(s)
purchased.
After lunch will start reading CFR regs. I hope you are correct with the 10K still being true but think it was a provision in Patriot Act that dropped the individual amount too $3K.
venomballistics
Member
the store isn't out to drop a dime on you. it's the zealots in the banking industry that will.
While we might consider 200 rounds of ammo to be the same as being out of ammo, our opposition regards 50 rounds to be far too much.
At the range, 500 rounds is easily expended. This is a quantity well beyond a threshold that the news would label a stockpile or cache.
Is it legal to own? sure ...
But that news footage of a BATF raid at your door to check out your nothing burger will have a detrimental effect upon your reputation within the community you have to live in.
It might not be jail time but there is a price to pay. Its a price similar to that of a meth cooker. You will live under the label of white nationalist prepper separatist from that day forward.
this is the best case.
Combine this to the spectrum of other recent developments and efforts and things get even more costly.
theres an Assault weapon tax proposed in a few different flavors festering in congress.
A politically loaded BATF and IRS can quickly lead to even better footage when you're cuffed and stuffed on tax evasion.
There are reasons they are dancing in the streets over this.
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Having worked a number of murder, attempted murder, and aggravated assault/battery cases, I'd disagree. We very often would find where a firearm came from, or had information on where ammo was purchased and by whom, and would simply go by the store and ask if they had video, then ask if we could review it. I was never turned down. And that was sveeral years ago, when most security systems had a 30 day storage limit. If I needed to, I could have gotten subpoenas or warrants, but there was never a need.
You have no reasonable expectation of privacy about your presence and purchase in a store open to the public.
You have no reasonable expectation of privacy about your presence and purchase in a store open to the public.
venomballistics
Member
that of what you speak was likely initiated by the discovery of someone becoming living challenged by artificial means, leading to such things.
While you were not denied access to such video evidence when you requested it, it was not the store calling you saying "bubba bought some shotgun shells" out of the blue.
It wont be you being called by the activist zealot banker anyhow. the call will go to an agency politically friendly to the zealots objective. Just like how "judge shopping" works
It's actually not that bad, for me anyway. I get 2% rewards cash back on any purchases I put on my card, so that $800 will trigger $16 back to me, and so the "insurance" that comes with using the card only cost me $12.
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