Paying to Rebuild the Ukraine

[Der Verminator]

He has "the moral high ground" after initially
starting the war?

Yes.

Suddenly Russia is not attacking Ukraine.........instead, Ukraine (and her NATO weapons providers) are now attacking Russia using the most modern high tech NATO weaponry.

Not hard to figure out why the chess pieces are moving as they are.

Russia is presenting this as proof that NATO has always been out to destroy her and is using Ukraine as a weapon.

 

[UncleEd]

Yes, ethnic Russians in eastern
Ukraine have tried to break away
from Kyiv's rule but the area is
within Ukraine's borders. It
belongs to Ukraine.

They saw an opportunity with
the 2014 Kremlin seizure
of Crimea to repeat
that success. It didn't work.
Ukraine fought to stop further
loss of land.

And it continues to do so since
the initial Russian attack toward
Kyiv.

Putin's grand plan just hasn't worked
out for him yet or ever.

 

[biku324]

The money was all soaked up by the Clinton Foundation and it was way more than $20m.



See that's what people aren't getting about this conflict. Everyone watching the MSM only knows what has been happening since early 2022. This war has been going on since 2014. The people of Donetsk and Luhansk have been living in a state of essentially WW1 style trench warfare with their ethnic Ukrainian neighbors for eight years. When local ethnic Russians tried to break away from Ukraine they thought Moscow would jump in and help them the way they did in Crimea. Moscow refused to help. The reason Putin refused to annex Donestsk/Luhansk is because he did not want to force the pro-West gov't into joining NATO. Those ethnic Russians were abandoned to constant shelling, kidnappings, raids, etc from their own gov't in Kiev.

Igor Strelkov, leader of the Slavyansk separatists in 2014, is competently accused of kidnapping, torture, and murder during his attempt to try to 'Crimea' eastern Ukraine. Credibly means there's video. Strelkov's de facto biographer and Russian apologist wrote '85 Days in Slavyansk,' Alexander Zhuchkovsky, a propaganda book available on Amazon. That propaganda is one of many disinformation efforts by Russians against Ukraine. You'll find identical anti-Ukrainian disinformation therein.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

Yes, ethnic Russians in eastern
Ukraine have tried to break away
from Kyiv's rule but the area is
within Ukraine's borders. It
belongs to Ukraine.

They saw an opportunity with
the 2014 Kremlin seizure
of Crimea to repeat
that success. It didn't work.
Ukraine fought to stop further
loss of land.

And it continues to do so since
the initial Russian attack toward
Kyiv.

Putin's grand plan just hasn't worked
out for him yet or ever.

Your timeline is confused. We struck first when the State Dept sponsored a "color revolution" through NGO's like Open Societies. At issue was the future of LNG pipelines to Western Europe and IMF loans vs subsidized energy and a large bailout from Moscow. Euro Maidan was a State Dept. op to replace the gov't in Kiev with one aligned with the West, not Moscow. Maidan included actsof violence and repression against ethnic Russians, culminating in a sham election choreographed from Washington. Kiev immediately began a campaign of violence and alienation against it's ethnic Russian citizens. The spearhead of these efforts was and is the neo-Nazi paramilitary organization known as Azov Battalion. Azov was initially an anti Russian terrorist organization clandestinely used by Kiev as an instrument of violence that has since been absorbed and acknowledged as an organ of the Ukrainian military.

Moscow reacted by annexing the traditionally Russian region of Crimea but refused to help Russian seperatists who tried to break away from Kiev.

 

[biku324]

Could one prove any of that in court?

 

[UncleEd]

Post #84 certainly clarifies the
Ukraine situation to wit in
2013-4 pro West/pro democracy
citizenry forced pro Kremlin
stooges to flee. Petulant Putin
seized Crimea but failed to fully
back pro Kremlin separatist
in eastern regions. Then in 2022
he tried to crush the upstart
democracy by attacking its capital.

 

[dockmurgw]

I am now a firm believer in reincarnation...Neville Chamberlain is back.

 

[Yaworski]

He now has the moral high ground.

Only in the distorted world view pushed by public education do you get to attack someone and then cry "Foul!" when they retaliate.

Maybe the world won't be a better place until the matter is settled and those who favor Russia can live in the traditionally Russian Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia and Crimea regions and those who are against Russia can live in Ukraine.

Gee, when a group of people in our country wanted to leave, a bloody war was the result and the man who started that war is lauded as a hero.

 

[Der Verminator]

Only in the distorted world view pushed by public education do you get to attack someone and then cry "Foul!" when they retaliate.

Childish?

No, the standard children's excuse for a fight is "he hit me first."

Exactly what Ukraine is saying.

The adult response is instead, "let's make peace now."

 

[mtgianni]

Childish?

No, the standard children's excuse for a fight is "he hit me first."

Exactly what Ukraine is saying.

The adult response is instead, "let's make peace now."

I believe the adult response is "Give me back my stuff you stole, and we can make peace now".

 

[Yaworski]

Childish?

No, the standard children's excuse for a fight is "he hit me first."

Exactly what Ukraine is saying.

The adult response is instead, "let's make peace now."

Who said anything about "Childish?"

Your answer is to give the aggressor what they want in the hopes that he won't attack anymore. "Here, have my lunch money. Just don't hit me anymore."

 

[Der Verminator]

I believe the adult response is "Give me back my stuff you stole, and we can make peace now".

And therein lies the root problem here.

BOTH parties feel they have a legitimate claim to that "stuff."

Ethnic Russians living in the disputed and traditionally Russian lands have been brutally oppressed by Ukrainian government.

I have a Hungarian friend who has horror stories about how Hungarians who work in Ukraine are mistreated, so I can see that there's probably truth in the Russian claims.

A compromise must be reached and the U.S. should be working to find it........instead of blaming Russia and encouraging Ukraine in fighting a lost cause against a far superior power.

 

[Der Verminator]

Who said anything about "Childish?"

Your answer is to give the aggressor what they want in the hopes that he won't attack anymore. "Here, have my lunch money. Just don't hit me anymore."

No, that's not my answer at all.

There's no lunch money involved, but instead a dispute over land ownership and oppression of ethnic Russians by the Ukrainians.

It's a little more complex than the bullying of children.

It is unclear as to just who is the majority population in the disputed lands........but it is suspicious that the Ukrainians are opposed to a free vote supervised by the United Nations to determine who should have these lands.

It requires adult behavior and a realistic assessment of the situation.

 

[UncleEd]

I have a Hungarian friend who has horror stories about how Hungarians who work in Ukraine are mistreated, so I can see that there's probably truth in the Russian claims..

This statement cries out for more
information. How are the Hungarians
"mistreated?" Why do they remain in
Ukraine and what brought them to
Ukraine in the first place? Why don't
they leave? Are they supporters
of the current Hungarian leadership?
Do they actively support Russian goals?

 

[Yaworski]

So if Canada wants Vermont because ethnic Canadians live there, we should give it to them?

What I see is that a megalomaniac in charge of a country that is losing relevance in the modern world decided that another country, with established borders, had something that he wanted. He thought that the smaller country would roll over and was surprised that they didn't.

 

[UncleEd]

It is unclear as to just who is the majority population in the disputed lands........but it is suspicious that the Ukrainians are opposed to a free vote supervised by the United Nations to determine who should have these lands.

What does it matter who the majority
is regarding ethnicity. The lands lie
within the borders of Ukraine; they
are Ukrainian. Why don't these
separatist Russians just separate by
going to Russia?

The fact is the lines of European
nations have been drawn and
redrawn through the centuries.
Poland is an example of ever
changing borders being forced
upon it.

But at some point, as of now
the 21st Century, it's time to
stop all the redrawing the map
to suit the blowing of political
winds.

Early on Putin made a speech
referring to what used to be
mother Russia a century and
more ago. He used this argument
to justify retaking Ukrainian land.

 

[Der Verminator]

This statement cries out for more
information. How are the Hungarians
"mistreated?" Why do they remain in
Ukraine and what brought them to
Ukraine in the first place? Why don't
they leave? Are they supporters
of the current Hungarian leadership?
Do they actively support Russian goals?

The government support of hate and actions of hate toward ethnic Russians is well-documented although it has been heavily covered up by Western Media.

This from a long and scholarly article that reveals more of the real story than most.

The government legitimises radical Russophobe organisations by co-opting its activists into power structures, including those of law-enforcement.

Thus, the position of the chief of Kiev regional police was filled by a deputy commander of the 'Azov' battalion, known for their usage of Nazi symbols.

The commander of that battalion, Andrey Biletskiy, with the support of the ruling 'Popular Front' party, has been elected to the Verkhovna Rada from one of Kiev's majority districts. Apart from him, a number of other nationalist-radicals known for their Russophobia have been elected to the parliament from majority parties' lists, including 'the Radical Party' of Oleh Lyashko.

There were no cases registered of the country leaders – the President or the Prime Minister – distancing themselves from the actions and radical anti-Russian rhetoric of their coalition partners.

Moreover, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk himself actively participates in the fomentation of that anti-Russian hysteria. All of this promotes the intensification of the degree of hatred towards Russia and, one way or another, towards Russians.

Among other things, the fomentation of ethnic strife is furthered by torch-light processions of nationalists held on a regular basis (with the government's acquiescence) under the slogans 'Glory to the nation, death to enemies', 'Ukraine above all', and 'Moskals to the knife!' in many cities of the country, including Kiev and even Odessa.

Russians in Ukraine: Before and after Euromaidan

 

[Der Verminator]

So if Canada wants Vermont because ethnic Canadians live there, we should give it to them?

The ethnic Canadians in Vermont are not oppressed or even noticed.

That could make a difference.

 

[dockmurgw]

So if Canada wants Vermont because ethnic Canadians live there, we should give it to them?

NOOOOO!!!!! There are enough bad drivers around here without us being one of them!!!
Now the entire Southwest back to Mexico? Hmmmm...

 

[dockmurgw]

The ethnic Canadians in Vermont are not oppressed or even noticed.

That could make a difference.

You obviously never met my mother-in-law.