S&w NM No.3 mystery gun.

[HamptonBogs45]

Hi everyone, still figuring the forum our. I picked up this refinished nm that has a Russian style spurred trigger guard. It says 44 s&w on barrel and others have told me that means 44 s&w russian. I tried to drop in some cartridges in the chambers to see what fits. My 44 russian reloads with 240gr rnfp only fits on 2 chambers and partially in the others. I have older historical 44 s&w American and Russian cartridges that I tried as well. Both went in some chambers. The chambers are rough(see photos) so I'm not sure I'm getting accurate feed back by dropping rounds in. I think I need to slug the bore. Can i do that by hammering a 454 round ball through with wood dowel? The bore should be .429 from my reading? The barrel a little pitted but not too bad. I was hoping to shout 44 Russian in it(black powder only). If it turns out the chambers are too rough is there any gunsmith that could reline them or ream? If the pitting is too deep would it be possible to bore the chambers and barrel to 45 s&w(schofield) blackpowder only of course. Just trying to figure out how I can make this a shooter. The action is perfect, I have a correct side plate screw I believe on the way, and it's been refinished and a non matching gun so collector value is gone. I'm a young guy into old guns this is my first model 3 I got for a fair deal I think knowing it wasn't collectable and needing work. I have some reproductions but they don't do that well with black powder. All I reload is black powder cartridges currently for other revolvers, rifles and shotguns jut still learning. Just asking for guidance in what my best move would be? Thanks.

 

[iby]

It is a very late example (POST 1900)
I think it has the long frame/cylinder.
Have you tried 44 special?
Looks like maybe someone has.

 

[BMur]

Altered

The barrel stamp is proof positive of caliber 44 Russian. I doubt the barrel has been altered.

I think your best bet is to closely examine the cylinder chambers by measuring them with a caliper.
Can you post a good quality photo of the face of the cylinder? This will tell us if the chambers have been machined all the way through. Also a photo of the muzzle and bore.

Altering these to a 44 WCF was very common. I don't think yours has been altered. You might just have some heavy scum in the chambers that needs to be carefully cleaned out. See photo

Once you carefully clean them I'm beating you'd be good to go.
Murph

 

[Boulder350]

HamptonBogs45,

I have a gun similar to yours. Its marked 44 S&W CTG, has the longer cylinder, and is several hundred serial numbers from yours. Unfortunately the cylinder on mine was modified. Mine was bored straight through a long time ago. My chamber accepts 44 Russian and 44 special rounds. It shipped in June of 1907.

I have read the 44 special was introduced in 1907 by Smith and Wesson. I'm not a cartridge expert but in the early 1900's didn't the 44 special and 44-40 have similar pressures and ballistics? My guess is that's why my revolver was modified, to fire the 44 special round back in the early days of the guns life. I would NEVER fire a 44 special in my revolver today. Many of today's 44 special rounds are way to hot for this old revolver and I'm afraid it would blow up.

I will never fire this gun, even with 44 Russian rounds. The accuracy will be very poor in it since the bullet will be unsupported from the end of the case mouth until it hits the rifling in the barrel. My gun will just sit on a shelf and be admired.

 

[HamptonBogs45]

The barrel stamp is proof positive of caliber 44 Russian. I doubt the barrel has been altered.

I think your best bet is to closely examine the cylinder chambers by measuring them with a caliper.
Can you post a good quality photo of the face of the cylinder? This will tell us if the chambers have been machined all the way through. Also a photo of the muzzle and bore.

Altering these to a 44 WCF was very common. I don't think yours has been altered. You might just have some heavy scum in the chambers that needs to be carefully cleaned out. See photo

Once you carefully clean them I'm beating you'd be good to go.
Murph

I will do that when I get home from work. And for the record I tried to drop in a 44wcf round and it wasn't even close to going all the way in. I'm hoping it's still unmodified 44 Russian. if the chambers are two pitted to take the 44 Russian rounds and need to be modified can any of you recommend a gunsmith that could clean up my chambers or change them to 44-40? I'm gonna do everything possible to leave it in 44 Russian though. Thanks for the replies and help this far fellas.

 

[Muley Gil]

You can rent a cylinder chamber reamer and clean up your chambers.

I have used 4D and had excellent results. They don't list a .44 Russian reamer, but you can rent a .44 Special one and check often. One hint: rent their handle at the same time. I didn't and my handles didn't fit, and I had to improvise.

Pistol Archives - 4D Reamer Rentals

 

[HamptonBogs45]

Ok, so I took more photos and measurements as requested. I tried dropping a bullet in and it fell through 5 of 6 chambers. A loaded round will only fit in 1 or 2 chambers. You all think a chamber reaming should be my first course of action? Thanks.

 

[HamptonBogs45]

Here's some more photos.

 

[mrcvs]

As you noted correctly, your New Model No 3 is refinished.

What do you have invested in your revolver?

I know you are young and interested in these, but a decent example that is not refinished still doesn't go for much, certainly much less than a well used Colt Single Action Army revolver from the same era.

 

[Muley Gil]

Yes, I would use a chamber reamer BUT, I would not shoot a round through that one chamber that seems to have a really deep crack in it.

The best idea would be to obtain another cylinder for shooting purposes.

 

[BMur]

Excellent photos

I will do that when I get home from work. And for the record I tried to drop in a 44wcf round and it wasn't even close to going all the way in. I'm hoping it's still unmodified 44 Russian. if the chambers are two pitted to take the 44 Russian rounds and need to be modified can any of you recommend a gunsmith that could clean up my chambers or change them to 44-40? I'm gonna do everything possible to leave it in 44 Russian though. Thanks for the replies and help this far fellas.

Hey,
You took some excellent photo's. That helps a ton.
Ok, in my opinion what you have is a leaded cylinder. Someone used oversized outside lubricated rounds that were too short for this cylinder. The most common round used that causes this condition. (That I have seen many times) is the 44 Bulldog.

The comparable is when we use a 38 special in a 357-mag chamber. The shorter case does not line up with the case stop milled into the 357. Shooting lead rounds a lot will "lead up" the cylinder at the case stop location.

The "exact same thing" is what I'm seeing from your excellent photo's. Someone had a stash of 44 Bulldog rounds and shot the bee gee bee's out of them in this cylinder. The early short case 44 bulldog was beyond extremely popular and was often shot in various other 44cal revolvers just because it could be.

So, all you have to do is clean them out really good and I'm still thinking that you'd be good to go.

Oh, and I like the gun. I think you'll be happy with it as a shooter. The long frame is a late variation that is valued by collectors.

Murph

 

[HamptonBogs45]

As you noted correctly, your New Model No 3 is refinished.

What do you have invested in your revolver?

I know you are young and interested in these, but a decent example that is not refinished still doesn't go for much, certainly much less than a well used Colt Single Action Army revolver from the same era.

I have $1600 into it. I bought it as it sits. I have a side plate screw on the way so just the chambers are the issue. If I knew a source for a shootable replacement cylinder it seems that'd be best since the one chamber is really bad it seems. At the same show I got it there's was a nice short frame version in original condition for $2600. But my budget was $2,000. And I'd rather 'play' with a refinished one than one in original good condition. Photo below of the other one I saw.

 

[HamptonBogs45]

Yes, I would use a chamber reamer BUT, I would not shoot a round through that one chamber that seems to have a really deep crack in it.

The best idea would be to obtain another cylinder for shooting purposes.

You know of anyone with a pile of parts that has one? And believe my gun is a long frame and cylinder. How hard are they to come across? Thanks.

 

[HamptonBogs45]

Hey,
You took some excellent photo's. That helps a ton.
Ok, in my opinion what you have is a leaded cylinder. Someone used oversized outside lubricated rounds that were too short for this cylinder. The most common round used that causes this condition. (That I have seen many times) is the 44 Bulldog.

The comparable is when we use a 38 special in a 357-mag chamber. The shorter case does not line up with the case stop milled into the 357. Shooting lead rounds a lot will "lead up" the cylinder at the case stop location.

The "exact same thing" is what I'm seeing from your excellent photo's. Someone had a stash of 44 Bulldog rounds and shot the bee gee bee's out of them in this cylinder. The early short case 44 bulldog was beyond extremely popular and was often shot in various other 44cal revolvers just because it could be.

So, all you have to do is clean them out really good and I'm still thinking that you'd be good to go.

Oh, and I like the gun. I think you'll be happy with it as a shooter. The long frame is a late variation that is valued by collectors.

Murph

I've tried like crazy to clean the chambers with copper brushes and ballistol. There's pitting and a deep crack in one. Looks like I maybe able to have 5 chambers reamed and not shoot in one that seems like it's a deep crack. I hope I can find a smith that can do that or find a new cylinder. Thanks for your comments.

 

[BMur]

cleaning out lead

I don't know how you can have a crack in a chamber that doesn't go through to the exterior? A crack is a crack. It's never just on one side. They "always" go through. I've worked on antiques longer than I can remember. Seen many cracks. They are all the same regarding cylinders. You can see them both inside and out.

Maybe you've never seen a leaded chamber? Copper brushes won't do a thing. Just run over the lead. You have to use a pick or a reamer to remove the built-up lead. The longer the lead remains in the chamber, the harder it is to remove. The pictures you posted are very clear to me. Solid built up lead. I don't see pitting either. Just lead.

Use a dental pick and see if you can pick some out of there. When it comes out in chunks and looks like lead???? That means its lead.

Murph

 

[HamptonBogs45]

I don't know how you can have a crack in a chamber that doesn't go through to the exterior? A crack is a crack. It's never just on one side. They "always" go through. I've worked on antiques longer than I can remember. Seen many cracks. They are all the same regarding cylinders. You can see them both inside and out.

Maybe you've never seen a leaded chamber? Copper brushes won't do a thing. Just run over the lead. You have to use a pick or a reamer to remove the built-up lead. The longer the lead remains in the chamber, the harder it is to remove. The pictures you posted are very clear to me. Solid built up lead. I don't see pitting either. Just lead.

Use a dental pick and see if you can pick some out of there. When it comes out in chunks and looks like lead???? That means its lead.

Murph

I'll give it a another go.

 

[Rosco Shooter]

I don't claim to be an authority on restoring antique firearms. That being said, I believe you would be well served using the Lewis Lead Remover in cleaning up the charge holes in your cylinder. You can order this product from Brownells. If you order over the telephone, you can ask the rep what size to order. You can also use the live chat feature when ordering over the web.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your project.

 

[iby]

I like BMur's idea.
Try to pick out a chunk with anything pointy and stiff.
The steel will not come out. only the lead.
Then you will know

 

[Borderboss]

What I see is leading as well. If you go with the Lewis Lead Remover, go easy as you don't want to overstress the chambers.

 

[HamptonBogs45]

I will get some shooters first lead remover from my local FFL and try that first tomorrow before getting the lewis. I believe they have some in the cleaning section. I hope it's lead and the cylinder isn't junk.