Buffalo Bore’s Claims Re Mono-Metal

[dwever]

Selected from Buffalo Bore’s web site. Trying to find reviews of Mono-Metal bullets to validate Buffalo Bore’s claims, particularly the penetration claims of “far deeper”. Following are some lifts from their web site.

“The advantages are that they are cleaner burning/firing than hard cast bullets. Also, hard cast bullets can smear their nose profile when they hit large bones at close range/high velocity. When the flat nose smears and changes shape, it can impact straight-line penetration.

The disadvantages are cost and case capacity issues……..mono-metal bullets made of copper or brass alloys are lightweight for their length. As an example, the 380 gr. bullet used in our DG 45-70 load is as long as a 500+ gr. hard cast bullet, depending on its alloy. This means that (for example) the 45-70 casing, with its limited capacity, will have much less propellant capacity when this long bullet is seated into it, so with this limited powder/case capacity, we have to get creative in choosing a propellant that will give us the velocity we need, but not burn so fast as to raise pressures beyond 43,000 PSI. The case capacity issues become more complex with casings that are much smaller than 45-70 like say a 44 Mag. casing. Lead-based bullets are heavy for their length and generally allow for much more case/propellant capacity. By choosing correct propellants, we can generally get great velocity from the long-for-weight mono-metal bullets.

We’ve long ago learned that flat-nosed, lightweight, mono-metal bullets penetrate far deeper (in a straight line too) than the typical lead-based bullet of similar weight—FAR DEEPER!”

 

[Autonomous]

When I was younger, I had to have the latest and greatest.
Now I understand why the old timers were skeptical of many new claims
Progress is real but so is BS.
Missouri has it right... Show me!

 

[twodog max]

Having a limited amount of experience with solid copper bullets in smaller calibers270-30. I am not overly impressed by them. The newer ones may be better but the ones I used left tremendous amounts of copper fouling, gave so so performance on deer size game and were and still are expensive. The ones I used also gave only fair accuracy as compared to cup and core bullets. When I can shoot through and through an elk with a 130 grain Partition how much penetration is needed for the dirt divot on the other side. So I decided until forced by idiots to not use lead or lead core bullets I am sticking with those. Actually the idiots will have to catch me first.
YMMV

 

[Benchrest1]

When it comes to handgun bullets I like the heavier hard cast gas check type the best.

 

[rockquarry]

I'm not sure much of an assessment can be made from the limited information in the orignal post. How deep must a handgun bullet penetrate?

As for "hard cast" as it relates to a lead alloy mixture for bullet casting, this has become a popular Internet term these days. Some know what hard cast is and many don't. Lots of different hardnesses could be called "hard cast", a vague term at best. One mix may make good "hard" bullets that will stay together and penetrate deeply. Another hard cast bullet may be incredibly brittle and violently come apart upon strking a hard object, providing only shallow penetration.

I am not aware of the usefulness of monometal (presumably copper) bullets for handgun cartridges as I have had no experience with them nor do I know what advantage these would offer over a cast bullet of the proper alloy for the intended use.

Monometal rifle bullets are fired at much higher velocities than handgun bullets so I don't know how the two bullet types would be compared, or if they even should be.

I've taken severel bull elk ( no more than seven or eight) with various Barnes copper bullets in three rifle chamberings. These bullets have been very accurate and penetrate deeply without coming apart. I've only recovered three bullets, but they mushroomed perfectly, looking like a bullet advertisement and retained about 95% to 100% of their original weight. These bullets, however, depend on retained high velocity for expansion. Without that, they would behave like a FMJ bullet.

Again, a handgun bullet would be very different.

 

[STCM(SW)]

For rifle bullets, I have great results with Barnes.
With hand guns, Lyman # II I mold is as good as you can get as far as I'm concerned.

 

[John Patrick]

Years ago I used to do a fair bit of elephant hunting. I tested different bullets on elephants I killed and I paid the camp skinners for bullets recovered which were used to kill the elephants. I killed 18 elephants.

Among those tested were flat nose hard cast bullets loaded to about 1750fps, Woodleigh RN steel jacketed “solids” at 2,120fps and North Fork FN 450gr solid copper bullets at 2,220fps.

The results for frontal brain shots through the trunk as if the elephant was still standing or from live elephants (Woodleighs and North Forks on both dead and live elephants. Hard casts on only elephants killed with Woodleighs or North Forks.)

I tested the hard cast bullets for a 45-70 fan, and loaded them to his specified velocity. I don’t recall with certainty the weight, but I think it was 510grs. They hard cast bullets penetrated about 30”, as I recall and they were recovered in pieces.

The Woodleigh steel jacketed solids, which are the traditional choice for elephant hunting penetrated an average of 36” in the head and almost all of them tumbled toward the end of their penetration and were recovered sideways, with some flattening toward the base. Their trajectories often curved. They reliably traversed the brain.

The North Fork FN solid copper bullets penetrated from 48” plus, with some complete end to end pass throughs. They were hard to recover once they passed through the truck, skull, neck and into the Lungs or guts. I recovered only one North Fork with a curving in flesh trajectory, and that one was the one with 48” or penetration. The nose was heavily deformed by impact with bone. The curve in the in flesh trajectory was obvious over the last 18” of travel, might have started earlier but deviation would have been immaterial until that last 18”.

The results for heart/lung shots were that Woodleighs occasionally passed through but we’re often found under the hide on the off side.

The North Forks passed through 100% of the time.

I didn’t try the hard casts, wish I had though.

I hunted with a double rifle and from about elephant six on I loaded a Woodleigh in the right (firsts fired) barrel and a North Fork in the left barrel. 100% of my first shots on all elephants was an attempt at a frontal or side brain shot.

The Woodleighs delivered a visibly more powerful impact on imperfect brain shots, often knocking the elephant down or out cold. I attribute that extra impact effect to the bullet turning sideways and dumping all of its energy in the head.

I loaded the North Forks in the second barrel because I could not predict shot angle on the second shot if the attempted brain shot didn’t drop the elephant and penetration became the paramount factor.

Range was typically 10 - 15 yards, with several closer, a couple at 20 to 25 and one at 35.

Imo and experience, Buffalo Bore’s statement is accurate.

ETA: At handgun velocities hard cast wide flat nose bullets are great penetrators and aren’t going to break up, imo. That penetration is also why anemic wadcutter loads in 38spl and 32S&W Long reach deep enough to meet FBI penetration standards.

Also ETA: A frontal brain shot on an elephant is not as easy as one might think. The target is about the diameter of a football or rugby ball, but it’s anywhere from 10” to 5’+ behind the required POI on the head, depending on how the elephant is holding its head. 10” if it’s head down and trying to bulldoze you, 5+’ if it’s discovered you and lifts it’s head up to peer over its tusk, more if terrain has it above you. And the head is always moving.

 

[twodog max]

Years ago I used to do a fair bit of elephant hunting. I tested different bullets on elephants I killed and I paid the camp skinners for bullets recovered which were used to kill the elephants. I killed 18 elephants.

Among those tested were flat nose hard cast bullets loaded to about 1750fps, Woodleigh RN steel jacketed “solids” at 2,120fps and North Fork FN 450gr solid copper bullets at 2,220fps.

The results for frontal brain shots through the trunk as if the elephant was still standing or from live elephants (Woodleighs and North Forks on both dead and live elephants. Hard casts on only elephants killed with Woodleighs or North Forks.)

I tested the hard cast bullets for a 45-70 fan, and loaded them to his specified velocity. I don’t recall with certainty the weight, but I think it was 510grs. They hard cast bullets penetrated about 30”, as I recall and they were recovered in pieces.

The Woodleigh steel jacketed solids, which are the traditional choice for elephant hunting penetrated an average of 36” in the head and almost all of them tumbled toward the end of their penetration and were recovered sideways, with some flattening toward the base. Their trajectories often curved. They reliably traversed the brain.

The North Fork FN solid copper bullets penetrated from 48” plus, with some complete end to end pass throughs. They were hard to recover once they passed through the truck, skull, neck and into the Lungs or guts. I recovered only one North Fork with a curving in flesh trajectory, and that one was the one with 48” or penetration. The nose was heavily deformed by impact with bone. The curve in the in flesh trajectory was obvious over the last 18” of travel, might have started earlier but deviation would have been immaterial until that last 18”.

The results for heart/lung shots were that Woodleighs occasionally passed through but we’re often found under the hide on the off side.

The North Forks passed through 100% of the time.

I didn’t try the hard casts, wish I had though.

I hunted with a double rifle and from about elephant six on I loaded a Woodleigh in the right (firsts fired) barrel and a North Fork in the left barrel. 100% of my first shots on all elephants was an attempt at a frontal or side brain shot.

The Woodleighs delivered a visibly more powerful impact on imperfect brain shots, often knocking the elephant down or out cold. I attribute that extra impact effect to the bullet turning sideways and dumping all of its energy in the head.

I loaded the North Forks in the second barrel because I could not predict shot angle on the second shot if the attempted brain shot didn’t drop the elephant and penetration became the paramount factor.

Range was typically 10 - 15 yards, with several closer, a couple at 20 to 25 and one at 35.

Imo and experience, Buffalo Bore’s statement is accurate.

ETA: At handgun velocities hard cast wide flat nose bullets are great penetrators and aren’t going to break up, imo. That penetration is also why anemic wadcutter loads in 38spl and 32S&W Long reach deep enough to meet FBI penetration standards.

Also ETA: A frontal brain shot on an elephant is not as easy as one might think. The target is about the diameter of a football or rugby ball, but it’s anywhere from 10” to 5’+ behind the required POI on the head, depending on how the elephant is holding its head. 10” if it’s head down and trying to bulldoze you, 5+’ if it’s discovered you and lifts it’s head up to peer over its tusk, more if terrain has it above you. And the head is always moving.

Good practical info but not many elephants in these parts. LOL

 

[joebuck]

Good practical info but not many elephants in these parts. LOL

Have you seen the women walking around there lately?

 

[Bald1]

I’ve often wondered what is the attraction to elephant hunting? And what does the meat taste like? How many pounds of meat come from an avg sized elephant?

 

[John Patrick]

Good practical info but not many elephants in these parts. LOL

Penetration is penetration, elephant, bear, bison…

Lack of penetration is lack of penetration, elephant, bear, bison…

 

[John Patrick]

I’ve often wondered what is the attraction to elephant hunting? And what does the meat taste like? How many pounds of meat come from an avg sized elephant?

I’ll answer this Q, but don’t want to hijack a thread about bullet penetration beyond that.

Elephant hunting is the most exciting and satisfying activity I’ve ever experienced. I would imagine that only combat would surpass the excitement. Excitement here means thrill, but also fear.

Tracking an elephant can occasionally be easy but is often very physically demanding. It can be well over 100* and terrain can be steep and broken. When it’s physically demanding it is also mentally demanding, since you can quit at any time. Terrain is significant, but an elephants pace is significant. A meandering elephant moves considerably faster than a human walking. Afternoon heat brings swirling breezes so there is an imperative to catch up as quickly as possible.

If you track an elephant, approach (in typically thick cover) and determine by glassing it’s not the right elephant and you walk away undetected it’s a great day. An average approach distance for glassing would be about 20-25yds. And you might have to approach several times from different angles to get a good look in the often heavy brush.

When you decide it’s the right elephant, every step inside of 20yds ups the excitement, including fear, knowing that every step brings you closer to or inside the elephants’ fight or flight range.

And it’s not often elephants are alone. You need to know where every elephant in the bachelor group or herd is. Hunters killed by elephants are almost always killed by an elephant which wasn’t a target and often by unseen elephants. Elephants blend in with the brush incredibly well.

You also know that the moment you pull the trigger you have lost all control. If your shot is perfect you have to be on guard for companion elephants. If your shot is imperfect you need to flow up with a killing heart/lung shot at an unpredictable angle - and still have to be on guard for companion elephants while reloading your empty rifle.

Bull elephant go into heat, called musth. When in mushth, they are unpredictable and often very irritable and aggressive. But other than a bull in musth, bull elephants are not as dangerous as cow elephants, especially tuskless cow elephants. And tuskless cow elephants are always in herds, with more eyes, ears and trunks to sense you.

Elephant “personality” differs between elephants, but also regions. In some areas every elephant is ready to kill the first human it senses. In those areas my “light rifle” used for impala, kudu, etc, is a 375H&H loaded with one soft point up the spout and four Woodleigh solids in the magazine.

Cow elephant tastes like grass fed beef. Bull elephant tastes the same but with a musky flavor added. The more recent his last period in musth, the more musky.

When you kill an elephant in a tribal area you make hundreds of villagers happy. And you must deliver the trunk and front should “on which the elephant fell” to the shamim, or to the Chief.

Typically elephants are shot early afternoon. You cut the last foot of the tail off as a sign of ownership and walk out. In the morning you cut a road into the elephant and hundreds of villagers are there, each with gunny sacks or pots to carry out meat. When it goes well the government or tribal game scout oversees a reasonably fair distribution of meat. If he loses control you leave for fear of being inadvertently stabbed by someone in the crowd as they rush the carcass trying to get meat.

Driving through the villages the next day reveals long strips of meat cut thin hanging from every bush, drying for storage.

One last note, for me killing an elephant is very emotional. Great feelings of sadness at killing such a grand creature, satisfaction at surviving and accomplishing your goal alternating. Slowly waining over a couple of days. I asked to be left alone with the first elephant while a skinning and recovery party was gathered. I did a fair of crying between periods of satisfaction and joy. By the 18th elephant I wasn’t openly crying, but the emotions were still cycling.

FWIW, I feel joy, satisfaction and sadness with a successful deer, duck or goose hunt too, but not near the extremes.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Hmmm..........Smoke and Mirrors........No fire......I have throw the bull flag on this.

 

[ruggyh]

To do a real comparison you would have to control all the variables with like for like bullets, something no one has done to date that I have see.

Bullet shape is very important in penetration but also straight line performance.

What is lost here is that penetration by itself is not a measure of how effective a bullet intent on killing is going to be.

You need shoot placement, penetration, and permanent damage through the wound channel, to be an effective killing projectile.

Since you are interested in 460 S&W, I will discuss my observations with this cartridge.

Monolith produce more damage/larger wound channels than shell and core designs (jacketed) as a whole. Some Core and shell designs which find themself loaded in 460 are not suitable for big game hunting as the open far to fast and act like bullets intended for varmint hunting.

The best hardcast bullets with meplats in 80% range will produce large would channels but suffer when the encounter heavy bone.

In the field I have rarely recovered any monolithic bullet, copper, lead, brass, or gliding metal. I have recovered most of the core and shell projectile or at some parts of them.

I use monolith designs exclusively for hunting with my 460.

All the monolith bullets I have used have performed as expected, large wound channels and quick kills, in most cases DRT with appropriate shoot placement.

My personal favorite for big game is North Fork 260 grain CPS.
Though I would don't mind any of Barnes choices 200 thru 275 or Cutting Edge Bullets (CEB) 240 Raptor.

The 275 Barnes is available as loaded ammunition from Federal.

In core and shell bullets, the Swift Bullets have the best performance, in all areas. The Hornady XTP MAG (240 and 300), Sierra 300, and Speer 300 all worked as expected. I cannot recommend the Hornady 200 FTX as big game round, my experience with these has been mixed but they open up way to quick when close (one of the objectives of handgun hunting).

I have yet to test the relatively new 245 grain interlock offering from Hornady but suspect it will be acceptable based on the other big bore Interlock bullet I have used.

I have not hunted much with hardcast because of the potential of bullet deformation. Were I have used them performance was good, two holes in every case, but I was careful to avoid heavy bone with shoot placement and animal selection (hogs).

While dead is dead, all bullets are not created equal, some get it done faster.

 

[John Patrick]

Hmmm..........Smoke and Mirrors........No fire......I have throw the bull flag on this.

The only smoke was from a paint can full of smoldering elephant dung wired into the Toyota’s cage to keep tse tse flies at bay.

Country was Zimbabwe. ETA: Even today CITIES (Convention In Trade In Endangered Species) permits are available for bull elephant. And, until Obama banned ivory imports, bringing home ( to the US) tusks from elephants taken under a CITIES permit was legal. It’s still legal for a US citizen to hunt elephants overseas - with the correct permits - but since Obama’s rule no ivory can be brought back. European ivory imports are still legal, as in European hunters can bring ivory home. My last elephant hunt was in 2013.

As long as tse tse flies exists elephants will exist. Permanent human habitation in tse tse fly areas is still unsuccessful since domestic animals are killed by disease carried by tse tse flies. The Zambezi Valley is one area chock full of elephants and tse tse flies.

I could take you on a drive in the Virginia country side one evening to count whitetail and a drive in parts of the Zambezi Valley to count elephant. You’ll count more elephants. One evening standing in a seasonally dry river bed we lost count at 340 elephants we could see coming to water. We had to leave well before dark since the lions were also plentiful and no one wants to bump into lions or elephants in the dark. The elephants were still streaming to the river bed. [Elephants dig in the dry river beds until they reach the water below. Every other animal, including man, uses the water holes the elephants dig.]

The one set of photos on my phone, depicting a charge resulting in my shooting to stop the charge. Range of first shot was seven paces. You can find reports on all hunts on Accurate Reloading . Com. User name JPK.

 

[John Patrick]

Photos by Dave Hulme, a photo journalist who asked if he could come along that day. The camera was a Nikon digital set on the auto burst mode, as Dave later told me. The elephant was aiming for Dave. He was wearing a relatively bright faded khaki shirt.

 

[RoiVin]

Great pics John Patrick!

Do you have a recommended/favorite PH?

 

[SWFan27]

When I was younger, I had to have the latest and greatest.
Now I understand why the old timers were skeptical of many new claims
Progress is real but so is BS.
Missouri has it right... Show me!

I have boxes of the best $2.00 or more a round stuff, but I went back to keeping the tried and true old school Remington semi jacketed hollow point as my carry round. Just more effective and practical. A heck of a lot cheaper too.

 

[twodog max]

Most of my hunting experience is with deer, whitetails for the most part. Not a huge animal and certainly no elephant. I never will have to deal with that situation. My base reference for African big game is the books by Peter Hathaway Capstick a professional hunter and animal control shooter in the 60's and 70's. Read his books for a lot of information on that subject.
However back to deer size game. Penetration is necessary but not to the degree of much larger animals. Based on my shooting of in excess of 1000 deer rapid expansion is the key to putting deer down fast. The best deer bullet i have ever used is the Nosler Ballistic Tip. I have used it in several different calibers and it has never disappointed. I have however used most other common bullets by almost all manufacturers.
Before anyone gets their hackles up maybe 2/3rds of the deer I shot were for research or animal control situations. Almost always the meat was consumed except in some of the research work where detailed necropsies were done which left no edible parts left.
The point of this is that on deer penetration is only a matter of a few inches then rapid expansion and severe trauma put animals this size down immediately or within a very short distance.

 

[John Patrick]

Most of my hunting experience is with deer, whitetails for the most part. Not a huge animal and certainly no elephant. I never will have to deal with that situation. My base reference for African big game is the books by Peter Hathaway Capstick a professional hunter and animal control shooter in the 60's and 70's. Read his books for a lot of information on that subject.
However back to deer size game. Penetration is necessary but not to the degree of much larger animals. Based on my shooting of in excess of 1000 deer rapid expansion is the key to putting deer down fast. The best deer bullet i have ever used is the Nosler Ballistic Tip. I have used it in several different calibers and it has never disappointed. I have however used most other common bullets by almost all manufacturers.
Before anyone gets their hackles up maybe 2/3rds of the deer I shot were for research or animal control situations. Almost always the meat was consumed except in some of the research work where detailed necropsies were done which left no edible parts left.
The point of this is that on deer penetration is only a matter of a few inches then rapid expansion and severe trauma put animals this size down immediately or within a very short distance.

I haven’t shot near 1,000 deer but I generally concur on bullet style. For decades my go to was a Federal load with a Sierra Game King, which is a simple cup and core bullet that expanded rapidly.

I use a 257 Roberts for whitetails and MD’s small Sika deer these days, and factory options are limited. I use Federal’s Partition 120gr load, which I stocked up on. Seems to be a good combination of rapid expansion and enough bullet behind the partition to break and penetrate the off side shoulder. But if they loaded Game Kings in 257R I’d be happy.

I will say that Federal’s 300gr Trophy Bonded 375H&H load performed amazingly well on critters from 90lb impala to 800lb eland and everything in between. I would use that bullet if I ever went hunting in Alaska. And maybe in a 30-06 for elk.