9mm / .38 Special

[smoothshooter]

a "few" more shots, but you have to seriously draw a line somewhere in the sand.

For 20 years the gun magazines have pushed small semi automatic pistols on us. They have always told us that these guns were BETTER then a revolver NO MATTER WHAT... simply based upon the following standard

A removable magazine

But the problem is, the gun industry that makes the guns, and essentially runs the gun magazine industry is overlooking critical things.

Sure it costs 580$ to get a j frame where i live, and only 150-250$ to get one of the highly recommended pheonix arms or seacamp or beretta pocket autos touted in the 25acp or 380 acp cartridges.

But you have to ask yourself, is that magical removable magazine such a good idea when its only holding 5 rounds of

25acp or 32acp or even 380 acp?

Seriously, id feel more well armed if i tied one end of a 40 inch shoelace to the trigger gaurd of one of these pocket autos and simply twirled it around my head.

Actually twirling a yo yo around your head may be more viable for self defense then the 25acp

I'll tell you what-
You and your pistol yo-yo and another person with any of the small handguns mentioned above square off against each other at 25 feet or less and close the gap with weapons deployed.
Not many observers will put their money on you winning that encounter.

NO ONE WANTS TO BE SHOT WITH ANYTHING.

 

[BC38]

Of course I have no " data ".
That is not the sort of thing I would have kept records of. Nor anyone else I personally know. But I have been around a good while, and have always paid close attention to this and other things that go on in the world related to the subject at hand.
Almost without exception, the more shots fired, the more shots missed.
How many instances are you aware of where an ordinary citizen needed 16 or 19 or 35 shots to responsibly solve a self defense problem without endangering other uninvolved people?
As for myself, I hope carrying less ammo reminds me to use the ammo I have more carefully.
I read about those ( non-military or law enforcement ) that carry an automatic pistol and a total of 3 high capacity magazines every day.
That is their right.
But if they spend time in places where the threat is that high, perhaps they need to make some lifestyle changes.

OK, then that is just your opinion, though you stated it as if it were established fact. Got it.
FWIW, if I have the choice (and thankfully I do) I'll take 12 or 13 rounds of high-performance 9mm over 5 rounds of ANY 38 or even 357, any and every day.
As always, YMMV.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I hate to say it but I think;
if you get hit in the center of your chest with a 4" barrel , with the first shot from a

9mm 124gr +P or
357 Magnum 125gr JHP

You should be.................

"Toast".

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm just saying, I personally know someone how was hit 11 times with a 9mm bullet and did not die. It took a while until he went down and was able to return fire.
These hits were above the groin and below the neck in his body, not the extremists.

That's all I'm going to say on this topic. This may be a one of event or not, I have no way of knowing.

 

[otis24]

I'm just saying, I personally know someone how was hit 11 times with a 9mm bullet and did not die. It took a while until he went down and was able to return fire.
These hits were above the groin and below the neck in his body, not the extremists.

That's all I'm going to say on this topic. This may be a one of event or not, I have no way of knowing.

Could the same person under the same circumstances take 11 hits from a .38 Special without dying? We don't know. That situation could speak to the ineffectiveness of the 9mm or it could be evidence of why more is better. Had the same subject taken 11 hits from a 5 shot J frame, you are talking having to reload at least twice to end the confrontation. Was the target on drugs? Psychotic? Heavily clothed? What type of 9mm ammo was used: ball, hollow point, other? Many factors can influence the effectiveness of a given caliber.

 

[eb07]

I'm just saying, I personally know someone how was hit 11 times with a 9mm bullet and did not die. It took a while until he went down and was able to return fire.
These hits were above the groin and below the neck in his body, not the extremists.

That's all I'm going to say on this topic. This may be a one of event or not, I have no way of knowing.

All handgun rounds suck. Just saying



45acp:


How a police gunfight led to an officer carrying 145 rounds

 

[WR Moore]

A lot of the usual items on caliber debates have been thrashed repeatedly above. A couple of comments:

Until recently, the 9 mm had a bullet development edge over the .38. It was a different diameter, slightly different weights and a limited velocity envelope. So, it was easier to design bullets, that worked, for it. If the ammo maker cheaps out on .38 bullet design (see below), the 9 mm is very superior.

OTOH, .38 caliber bullets generally had to work in both .38 Spl and .357 Magnum. Given the wide velocity envelope, someone was gonna get disappointed. At least until a very few bright souls started making different bullets to suit different velocity ranges. As an example, the Gold Dot intended for use in .357 loads has a dish shaped cavity, very different from that of the .38 short barrel bullet. I expect the factory .38 ammo has a much more conventional JHP design.

 

[venomballistics]

I'm of similar mind on the matter. I look at the 9mm as a plinker to replace the 22 LR as well.
where I may require something above 147 grains, I'll sooner look to the 357, skipping the 38 altogether.
Since I cannot leave things so streamlined as that, I've added 350 legend to the mix to maintain some loading supply decision turmoil

 

[venomballistics]

Could the same person under the same circumstances take 11 hits from a .38 Special without dying? We don't know. That situation could speak to the ineffectiveness of the 9mm or it could be evidence of why more is better. Had the same subject taken 11 hits from a 5 shot J frame, you are talking having to reload at least twice to end the confrontation. Was the target on drugs? Psychotic? Heavily clothed? What type of 9mm ammo was used: ball, hollow point, other? Many factors can influence the effectiveness of a given caliber.

Long ago when Jeff Cooper wrote for G&A, he related a story of a restaurant owner fighting off a strung out robber with a 357 snub, slinging 125 grain JHP's.
The owner drilled him with all six between the shirt pockets, and the perp just stood there, more or less dazed.
He reloaded his revolver, adding six more drain holes to his cardiovascular system. The perp was STILL on his feet.
He reloaded yet again, in the course of which the perp finally collapsed in a pool of his own greenish orange sauce.
(Not sure what drug does THAT)
While the overall survival rate of a drug crazed perp is diminished due to drug induced organ damage, the time it may take to join his ancestors may be extended.
While the Mozambique drill may stray a bit from the principal of firing until the threat has ended, considering the probable emotional and chemical state of the person you may have to shoot is part of this reality.
Chest, chest, head to keep from joining the dead.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

The only shot that can be counted on to immediately stop someone is a CNS…Central Nervous System…shot which is difficult when he's moving and bobbing and weaving.

There was a case in California many years ago…probably 1970s or '80s…where a very large biker type who was high on drugs was attacking police. He absorbed something like thirty-three handgun rounds and didn't stop though he had fatal wounds…he didn't drop until shot from behind with a 12-gauge slug.

 

[venomballistics]

The only shot that can be counted on to immediately stop someone is a CNS…Central Nervous System…shot which is difficult when he's moving and bobbing and weaving.

There was a case in California many years ago…probably 1970s or '80s…where a very large biker type who was high on drugs was attacking police. He absorbed something like thirty-three handgun rounds and didn't stop though he had fatal wounds…he didn't drop until shot from behind with a 12-gauge slug.

this would be in the era of the 357 magnum duty weapon.
Not to say things like this reflect poorly on the cartridge, rather, it illustrates the nature of the threat one may face.
Short of something that'd reduce them to a crimson mist, similarly to what a 220 swift does to a prairie dog, most everything has the potential to disappoint.

A while back, a mugshot of a thug shot square in the forehead with an MP5 was making the rounds.
Nasty gash, reportedly rang his bell enough to get cuffs on him, but otherwise it was deflected by his cranium.
Here, even the Mozambique drill may have had less than ideal results. It does, however, stack the deck in ones favor. We're givin' er all shes got ballistically, the rest is in applying it strategically.

 

[bmcgilvray]

My chronograph has always had an issue with prejudice.

It has always indicated that the .38 Special is capable of more performance and is more flexible than the 9MM is capable of being and it's the 9MM that is a most overrated handgun cartridge.

Must have faulty circuitry or something.

 

[rockquarry]

My chronograph has always had an issue with prejudice.

It has always indicated that the .38 Special is capable of more performance and is more flexible than the 9MM is capable of being and it's the 9MM that is a most overrated handgun cartridge.

Must have faulty circuitry or something.

My chronograph says the same thing and I'm pretty sure it works okay.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Could the same person under the same circumstances take 11 hits from a .38 Special without dying? We don't know. That situation could speak to the ineffectiveness of the 9mm or it could be evidence of why more is better. Had the same subject taken 11 hits from a 5 shot J frame, you are talking having to reload at least twice to end the confrontation. Was the target on drugs? Psychotic? Heavily clothed? What type of 9mm ammo was used: ball, hollow point, other? Many factors can influence the effectiveness of a given caliber.

No drugs, no mental problems, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Wearing just a button down shirt, he lives in a southern broader state so it's warm much of the year. 9mm ammo was a highly respected HP SD round from a name brand company.

As for the 38, like you said, who knows??

 

[Michaelp57]

Hell yeah

Love my .45 ACP. I have a Ruger P345 that's an absolute tack driver inside of 25 yards.

As a newer shooter, I've never seen a p345 in person, they look like bad *** little guns, my american in .45 isn't quite a tack driver, but my shield45 is my dedicated carry because of it's accuracy compared to any of the micro 9s I've shot. Not a knock on 9mm, I love my full size 9s, but for carry, i like my .45acp much better.

 

[BC38]

On the top end the 38 Spl is MUCH more powerful than the 9mm. In practical usage, yes, they are pretty comparable. Out of a revolver the 38 can obviously be loaded to a much wider range...the 9 has to be kep inside of a tighter pressure window so that the gun operates...but in the middle they are very similar.

38 can be loaded lighter and hotter which is why I usually like it better...plus I just like revolvers better than auto pistols.

And you're right, 9mm is the current "defacto" defensive hangun round in the USA, just like the 38 special used to be.

At one time revolvers were the top choice for serious work, and the 38 spl was the top choice for a round that is "good enough" for defensive work.

Today, semi-autos are the top choice for serious work and the 9mm is "good enough" for defensive work.

I'm not sure exactly what data sources you've been looking at, but when you compare the Ballistics 101 webpage data for the two cartridges, there doesn't appear to be any significant advantage for the 38 special.

38 Special Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

vs the 9mm
9mm Ballistics Chart | Ballistics 101

I guess that if you want to include "cowboy loads" for the 38 special, it has a little wider range and more versatility. However, in practical terms, the loads for both rounds pretty much fall within the same envelope - ranging from around 250 ft/lbs ME to topping out at about 500 ft/lbs ME.

I guess you can give a slight advantage to the 38 on the basis that it can be down-loaded to under 200 ft/lbs ME. While that has some benefits for range days, for any kind of social work, that so-called advantage is moot.

Don't get me wrong, I love and reload and both rounds. It just seems to me that, overall, the packaging and equal potency of 9mm semi-autos gives them an advantage over a 38 wheel gun for most applications.

A always, your opinion may differ and YMMV.

 

[BC38]

a "few" more shots, but you have to seriously draw a line somewhere in the sand.

For 20 years the gun magazines have pushed small semi automatic pistols on us. They have always told us that these guns were BETTER then a revolver NO MATTER WHAT... simply based upon the following standard

A removable magazine

But the problem is, the gun industry that makes the guns, and essentially runs the gun magazine industry is overlooking critical things.

Sure it costs 580$ to get a j frame where i live, and only 150-250$ to get one of the highly recommended pheonix arms or seacamp or beretta pocket autos touted in the 25acp or 380 acp cartridges.

But you have to ask yourself, is that magical removable magazine such a good idea when its only holding 5 rounds of

25acp or 32acp or even 380 acp?

Seriously, id feel more well armed if i tied one end of a 40 inch shoelace to the trigger gaurd of one of these pocket autos and simply twirled it around my head.

Actually twirling a yo yo around your head may be more viable for self defense then the 25acp

REALLY?

OK, I'll give you a Duncan and I'll take my old Iver Johnson TP25 with 7+1 rounds of 25ACP and we can face off at thirty paces.

We'll see who goes home and who goes into a body bag.

GET REAL!

How do you define "a few more shots"? A J-frame 5-shot vs a Hellcat or P365 with 13 or 14 rounds?

I guess 2-3 times the number of rounds amounts to "just a few more" - depending on your individual perspective.

 

[BC38]

Can't use snake loads in any semi auto so revolver still what I use in the field.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure about that.
I saw some boxes of CCI 9mm shot loads for sale at the Post Falls, ID Cabelas yesterday!

 

[BC38]

Could the same person under the same circumstances take 11 hits from a .38 Special without dying? We don't know. That situation could speak to the ineffectiveness of the 9mm or it could be evidence of why more is better. Had the same subject taken 11 hits from a 5 shot J frame, you are talking having to reload at least twice to end the confrontation. Was the target on drugs? Psychotic? Heavily clothed? What type of 9mm ammo was used: ball, hollow point, other? Many factors can influence the effectiveness of a given caliber.

Exactly. If 11 rounds of 9mm wasn't enough, who here HONESTLY believes that 5 rounds of ANY 38 Special would have been more effective? Anybody who kept coming after 11 rounds of 9mm SD ammo isn't going to be stopped by 5 rounds of the very BEST 38 special.

Sorry, but thinking otherwise is whistling past the graveyard IMO. There will always be those rare anecdotal exceptions that people can point to.

FWIW, the other question that immediately comes to mind is;
After taking rounds of 9mm, was this person you are referring to still able to function? Or did the 11 rounds of 9mm accomplish the desired result - which would be disabling an attacker and "taking them out of the fight"? And if 11 rounds is what it took, what would have happened if the defender had only had 5 rounds available?

 

[venomballistics]

REALLY?

OK, I'll give you a Duncan and I'll take my TP25 with 7+1 rounds of 25ACP and we can face off at thirty paces.

We'll see who goes home and who goes into a body bag.

GET REAL!

How do you define "a few more shots"? A J-frame 5-shot vs a Hellcat or P365 with 13 or 14 rounds?

I guess 2-3 times the number of rounds amounts to "just a few more" by some definitions.

add to that the cherry picked specimens.
Most (but not all) gunfights are finished before the gun runs dry.
capacity has no advantage in these cases.
But we don't get to pick these conflicts. Fate may see fit to deal you a protracted gunfight where a reload is required.
That is where the auto pulls away with a significant advantage.
You may be hit. adrenaline has replaced most of your blood and your fine motor skills are gone.
five or six small cartridges into same sized holes or a larger mag into a mag well.
The auto is more tolerant of a ham fisted reload.