A liberal looking for a gun show loophole.

BB57

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I attended a gun show yesterday and an older gentleman was asking a vendor if he could buy a handgun without a purchase permit or concealed carry permit. The person behind the table was young, obviously a teen belonging to the mom and dad who were the actual vendors and busy with other customers.

I was standing next to him and seeing the confused look on the kid's face I explained there isn't a gun show loop hole, particularly when it comes to handguns in North Carolina. I explained it's just media hype and disinformation.

I explained that an FFL has to run a back ground check for all firearms purchases, and in NC a purchase permit or concealed carry permit is required to buy a handgun.

I stated that universal background checks are also already the way it works for handguns in NC. State law requires that a private seller, or someone settling an state must obtain and keep a copy of the buyer's concealed carry permit or get and keep the original purchase permit from the buyer.

He then stated he has never owned a handgun before but was looking to purchase one given the downward spiral in civility and the rising crime rates.

I spent about 10 minutes talking about different operating systems and showing him the differences between revolvers, DA/SA pistols, SA pistols and striker fired pistols. I also discussed with him how those differences can be important depending on what you plan to do with the handgun and if you intend to conceal carry it, how you plan to carry the handgun and related holster and safety considerations.

I also talked about where he could obtain training and also rent handguns to try before he buys.

He then made a comment that he was surprised as 95% of the people at the gun show didn't look like the people the media portrays as gun owners - they looked like normal people.

Then he asked me why there has been an in increase in mass shootings.

My answer was that it isn't the guns or the mainstream gun owner community. I noted that we are seeing an increase in suicides and drug over doses in addition to an increase in mass shootings. I pointed out the commonality between them is that they are all what are referred to as "deaths of despair". The causes of all three lie in the poor state of the economy, lack of opportunity in education and livable wage/family supporting wage jobs, rising rent and mortgage rates, high costs of medical care and the lack of any effective safety net. That creates despair that leads to suicides, drug abuse and violence as people become disconnected and have little or nothing to lose.

I pointed out that neither party is very interested in addressing those underlying issues. On side wants to avoid the hard problems and complex solutions and just go after the guns. The other side is still more interested in derivative income and return on investment than creating incentives to keep and bring good paying jobs back to the US and reinvest excess earnings in productions, infrastructure, R&D, skilled labor, etc rather than taking them as profits for investors.

I also advised that three is a very small minority of gun owners who will do things like post a picture of themselves on social media with tactical gear and a military styled semi auto rifle along with a quote like "I'm ready to use my gun to fight for <insert favorite right or conspiracy theory here>".

I added 90% of those right wing fringe gun owners making those kinds of posts are just posturing and don't actually mean it, but they have a big social media microphone and make the rest of us look like ignorant and or irresponsible, radicals. It feeds the anti gun frenzy.

But I said for a small percentage of (usually but not always) young, impressionable, males who feel disconnected and disempowered, seeing those kinds of social media posts causes them to identify with those gun owners who (ironically enough as that isn not their intent) present themselves as victims, but victims with guns that give them power over others. Mr. Crazy, meet Mr. Gun. it's a match made in social media heaven. Unfortunately, a much smaller percentage of those disempowered folks actually make plans and then act on those plans in the form of a suicide by mass shooting. The see it as a way go out as someone who is both infamous and for one brief moment has power and control over others.

—-

At another table with a private seller, someone asked him if he had to run a background check. He said "yes", and the guy obviously walked away. I commented "if he has to ask the answer is always 'yes' ". He was downsizing his personal collection and he commented he won't sell to someone, even a long gun, unless they have a purchase permit or a concealed carry permit. He keeps photo copies of the carry permit and also keeps a copy pistol purchase permit rather than the original if it's a long gun.

No gun show loophole there either.
 
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Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the gentleman at the gun show, BB57. And thanks for telling us how you handled the situation.
 
I'm curious, how does an older gentlemen asking about buying a gun become:
"A liberal looking for a gun show loophole."
Isn't that doing what you accuse the media of doing?

He stated that he was a liberal, and he stated his wife was very liberal and anti-gun.

He wasn't just seeking assistance with a gun purchase he was seeking help in better understanding the positive aspects of gun ownership.

——

I have to ask, is being a liberal who likes guns, shoots guns or is just thinking that owning a gun is a good idea given slow police response times bad?

Do liberals have fewer 2A rights than the rest of us? Of course not. Correcting mis perceptions, helping them reframe guns in a better light and showing them the usefulness and utility in their own lives is how we build support for the second amendment across whatever divide you want to identify or create.

——

It also helps defend the 2A when we raise awareness that an abuse in the form of regulatory creep and over reach by one federal agency creates precedents for abuses by other federal agencies.

For example, as a pilot I know and interact with a lot of other pilots. Most of them don't care whether braced pistols are banned, and many of them think its just an SBR loophole that should be closed.

But all of them recognize regulatory creep and over reach by the FAA and see how poorly conceived a policy made outside of established and transparent administrative procedures poses and creates harm to pilots and aviation. From that perspective they'll support op positive to the pistol brace rule and other anti gun rule making as they can see how it also affects them in the larger picture.
 
But the guy walking around the gun show with the for sale sign around his neck can sell his guns to anybody? That's the "loophole".
 
But the guy walking around the gun show with the for sale sign around his neck can sell his guns to anybody? That's the "loophole".

The sign is fine, it's how the sale is made that varies from state to state. They passed a "all sales must go through an FFL" law here, and most sheriff's departments have said they are not going after it as a primary offense. It's damn near unenforceable before the fact.
 
In Florida I gotta see a valid Florida driver's license. CWP mo better. After that Cash or trade item(s) change hands. And have a nice day. Joe
 
The causes of all three lie in the poor state of the economy, lack of opportunity in education and livable wage/family supporting wage jobs, rising rent and mortgage rates, high costs of medical care and the lack of any effective safety net. That creates despair that leads to suicides, drug abuse and violence as people become disconnected and have little or nothing to lose.

I also advised that three is a very small minority of gun owners who will do things like post a picture of themselves on social media with tactical gear and a military styled semi auto rifle along with a quote like "I'm ready to use my gun to fight for <insert favorite right or conspiracy theory here>".

I added 90% of those right wing fringe gun owners making those kinds of posts are just posturing and don't actually mean it, but they have a big social media microphone and make the rest of us look like ignorant and or irresponsible, radicals. It feeds the anti gun frenzy.

your post was well written, thoughtful and agree with most of it.
As to the economy...it is booming in many if not most states. In my mountain community there are two jobs for every applicant, and housekeepers are getting paid $25/hr.
Where the economy is not vibrant, just look at the social environment and ask is this a place that can attract businesses requiring a young and talented work pool looking to start careers and raise families in a dynamic area with high level schools.

As a life long independent who votes issues and candidate ahead of party, and gun owner since a teenager, I find the AR crowd in their quasi-combat outfits and masks who post up to intimidate in front of polling stations, libraries, playhouses, town halls, etc. to be absolutely despicable.
It sends a message to the US public that gun owners are nothing more than militant posers seeking to intimidate democracy through the threat of firepower, not understanding these posers are a micro minority in the second amendment community.
A very apt saying about such:"too dumb to be cops, not enough guts to join the military."
 
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That poor guy will probably never go to another gunshow.

In states with UBCs (like mine) there is no "gun show loophole". All gun show sales go through an FFL and get a background check. Doesn't matter if the table renter is an FFL or Joe Blow. There is a station set up for BCs.

In other states a felon can go to Table A, pick out his Taurus, and back out when he is handed a 4473. He can then go to Table B, pick out his Taurus, hand over his cash, and walk out with his gun. THAT is the gun show loophole you hear so much about. I'm fine with it, but pretending it doesn't exist is no help to anyone.
 
........In other states a felon can go to Table A, pick out his Taurus, and back out when he is handed a 4473. He can then go to Table B, pick out his Taurus, hand over his cash, and walk out with his gun. THAT is the gun show loophole you hear so much about. I'm fine with it, but pretending it doesn't exist is no help to anyone.

You are absolutely right. I much prefer the time most everyone around here attended shows and held valid 01 FFL's, almost 30 years ago now. I still ask more questions than I need to and turn down a sale "just because." Joe
 
There is no UBC in NC, unless one cares to count the one I had 5 years ago, and will every 5.

I have never been required to give a copy of my CHP to any private seller or dealer selling his personal stock. Even at gun shows.

I did provide a phone snapshot for a Raleigh cop who asked nicely, after money was exchanged. Off duty of course.

I have never required a copy of anyone's CHP to make a handgun purchase. It's not. PPP original issue, yes.
 
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I'm with LCC. The economy is not the problem. The party you suggest is taking profits and not reinvesting is not true. I recall things BOOMING under one party and crashing hard under another……… But none of that matters. We have a mental health problem in this country. And until we admit and then address it nothing will change. As for liberals at gun shows. I see one or two a yr asking stupid gotcha questions to vendors.
 
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Wy is pretty lax ...no permit to carry needed although they do have permits here. I sell a gun at a gun show I ask to see a DL. If not from Wy I don't sell 'em if a handgun. Long guns are a little bit easier if from surrounding states. There are certain groups of people I will not sell to...not going into that because of the possibility of getting a vacation from here. I usually only do local shows and know many of the "shoppers" personally. BTW I do not have a carry permit. I don't carry all the time but this IS a pretty safe place to live. When we leave home however we are always armed when we get home to our end of the road small ranch...JIC if you know what I mean. There is crime everywhere it seems...even in fly over country. In the summer tourista season there are people that carry openly and people from other areas and countries kind of look at them funny. Either on the street or in Wally World especially. I had a Chinese gal ask me why I carried a gun in Wally once. She happened to see it when I reached up to a high shelf. I told her because I could and there were people from all over the world in there and it made me feel "unsafe". Should have seen that look! And as y'all know that place is full of Walmartians. We even get to see 'em here esp in summer
 
I'm with LCC. The economy is not the problem. The party you suggest is taking profits and not reinvesting is not true. I recall things BOOMING under one party and crashing hard under another……… But none of that matters. We have a mental health problem in this country. And until we admit and then address it nothing will change. As for liberals at gun shows. I see one or two a yr asking stupid gotcha questions to vendors.

A few yards back in the forum was a thread about the mass shooter wannabe at an Omaha target store.
Loaded down with around 400 rounds of ammo for his AR, he managed to fire 6 rounds, hitting no one, before getting clipped by LEO's who did not hesitate.
Parents of the shooter tried hard to get their son some mental help, voiced concerns and all else to no avail. So the schizophrenic ran amok.
It used to be family could get em committed before such things happened. This just isnt the case today.
 
There is no UBC in NC, unless one cares to count the one I had 5 years ago, and will every 5.

I have never been required to give a copy of my CHP to any private seller or dealer selling his personal stock. Even at gun shows.

I did provide a phone snapshot for a Raleigh cop who asked nicely, after money was exchanged. Off duty of course.

I have never required a copy of anyone's CHP to make a handgun purchase. It's not. PPP original issue, yes.

Have you read the NC statute on pistol sales? It's a crime to both "sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive" or "purchase or receive" any pistol without a purchase permit or a concealed handgun permit.

In cases where you bought a handgun via private sale, your possession of a CHP gets both you and the seller off the hook by virtue of having it.

However in cases where you sold someone a handgun without requiring possession of a purchase permit or CHP, both you and the buyer broke the law.

Now…I'm just going to assume you were speaking hypothetically and or just telling stories for effect, as opposed to incriminating yourself in a public forum.

https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_52A.pdf

§ 14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.
(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase.
It is unlawful for any person or persons to receive from any postmaster, postal clerk, employee in the parcel post department, rural mail carrier, express agent or employee, railroad agent or employee within the State of North Carolina any pistol without having in his or their possession and without exhibiting at the time of the delivery of the same and to the person delivering the same the permit from the sheriff as provided in G.S. 14-403. Any person violating the provisions of this section is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(b) This section does not apply to an antique firearm or an historic edged weapon.
(c) The following definitions apply in this Article:
(1) Antique firearm. – Defined in G.S. 14-409.11.
(2), (3) Repealed by Session Laws 2011-56, s. 1, effective April 28, 2011.
(4) Historic edged weapon. – Defined in G.S. 14-409.12.
(5) through (7) Repealed by Session Laws 2011-56, s. 1, effective April 28, 2011.
(1919, c. 197, s. 1; C.S., s. 5106; 1923, c. 106; 1947, c. 781; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1971, c. 133, s. 2; 1979, c. 895, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 287, s. 1; c. 539, s. 284; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2004-183, s. 1; 2004-203, s. 1; 2009-6, s. 2; 2011-56, s. 1.)
 
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