Cessna 560 Crashes

[Retired W4]

As I remember our UC-35s had Collins FMS. I've used them and Universal UNS-1 but it's been too long ago to remember the particulars.

As TJm15.38 said, it will be a while. NTSB doesn't have much to go on at the crash site. A 20,000 FPM impact does not leave much in tact.

 

[MDF4]

You've been there too. Especially pertinent with helicopters...don't inflate your LPU until you clear the A/C. A few of us were doing over water ops in the 80s (helocasting, etc.) and were able to wrangle a class. They could make it dark in there. Even got a few ship landings with the Navy.

Protocol was don't pull the cord until you hit the surface which begged the question, "Wherein the heck is the surface?"
Hope you got to do a trap, rather than a flair getting aboard USS boat.

 

[Marine Corps Air]

Just my opinions based on the information that I have now.

The Air Traffic Control (ATC) records will be extremely important especially if the aircraft did not have a Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR). Back in the day when I filed flight plans if my route of flight was through a Restricted Area I had to provide a way point east or west of the Restricted Area before my flight plan would be accepted by ATC. Sometimes, if ATC was not busy, your Flight Plan could be approved before takeoff, but you would (always) receive radar vectors in flight to avoid the Restricted Area.

There is the possibility that the pilot programmed in his route of flight and lost consciousness before arriving south of the Restricted Area. One account indicated that voice communication was lost about fifteen minutes after takeoff. If so, the aircraft could have flown through the Restricted Area for the first leg of the flight with ATC not realizing that there was an in-flight emergency. There were multiple attempts to contact the aircraft by ATC with no response from the aircraft.

I agree with TJm15.38's procedures for in-flight loss of aircraft pressurization. In my opinion, this would constitute an in-flight emergency, with the aircrew requesting an immediate emergency descent to 10,000' from the ATC. Just my opinion.

One account stated that the pilot was a retired Captain from Southwest Airlines. I did not realize that civilian pilots (and did not receive their flight training while in the military) do not receive training for hypoxia situations in flight. If you are not familiar with this training, there is a scene in the movie "An Officer and A Gentleman".

Bill

 

[Retired W4]

Incorrect setting of the pressurization may have cause the pilot to be asleep prior to the warning sounding. I understand he was passing FL310 at 15 minutes of flight. That's an average of 2000 FPM climb. Piece of cake in a lightly loaded C-560.

MDF4, the Navy was kind enough to let us do 3 landings each, in UH-1H's. They were hanging out on the Pacific side waiting to transit the Canal. I forget the ship's name. I wanted to shut down for chow but I had other things to do.

 

[Beemerguy53]

...Army regs say one hour above 10,000, 30 minutes above 12,000 w/o Supplemental O2, and anytime above 14,000 O2 required...

I apologize for the thread drift, but your post reminded me of something...

In April of last year I visited the Jungfraujoch, which is a saddle in the Swiss Alps near Grindelwald. At the viewing deck in the visitors center, I was 11,716 feet above sea level. (It was also 1° Fahrenheit, with a 20 mph wind!) Breathing was very difficult, I had to take every step carefully, and I was getting nauseated.

There are stores and shops there, and I was amazed watching the locals and the employees who were moving around normally, with no apparent difficulty. I stayed up there about 1 hour before taking the cogwheel train back down the mountain.

The view was magnificent, but I won't be going back there...

 

[MDF4]

Beemerguy, I think you were well on your way to a state of Hypoxia. Headache, dizziness, vomiting + are key symptoms of what's coming.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Have been near 50k many times in pressurized airplanes.
On the ground have only climbed one Fourteener.
La Plata up on the West side of the Arkansas.
Funny thing - the two older but altitude adjusted guys didn't have any problem.
But the altitude bothered the Young Athletic Dude who lived In Houston.

 

[jpage]

Can an A/C lose pressurization so slowly the the cabin pressure alarm will not activate ?

 

[Beemerguy53]

Beemerguy, I think you were well on your way to a state of Hypoxia. Headache, dizziness, vomiting + are key symptoms of what's coming.

I spent about eights days straight in the Swiss Alps on that trip, and was feeling lightheaded and slightly queasy even after I got back to lower altitude a couple of days before flying home. When I got home I immediately went to my doctor just to be sure there wasn't some other heart/lung issue going on...there wasn't.

 

[Kinman]

I had a good friend and retired Air Force fighter pilot that told me a story about a particular early jet he was fond of because he could basically open a window for fresh air ventilation at lower elevations. While on a training mission for some reason or another they rolled up above the oxygen limit (10K?) and Roger failed to close the window, loosing conciousness, his wing man was yelling at him as he slowly went into an easy swing towards earth. Fortunately he came to before impact and pulled out...stuff happens.

 

[Secundius]

I had a good friend and retired Air Force fighter pilot that told me a story about a particular early jet he was fond of because he could basically open a window for fresh air ventilation at lower elevations. While on a training mission for some reason or another they rolled up above the oxygen limit (10K?) and Roger failed to close the window, loosing conciousness, his wing man was yelling at him as he slowly went into an easy swing towards earth. Fortunately he came to before impact and pulled out...stuff happens.

Economical cruising speed for the Cessna 560 is ~350-kts! Opening a window at that speed while plausible also host several problems for the flight crew, not the least of which is something being sucked into the cockpit! Safe operating speed for a plane used in parachute jumping is less than 150-kts…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[TJm15.38]

Can an A/C lose pressurization so slowly the the cabin pressure alarm will not activate ?

That should not happen unless the warning system is inoperative. Checking all the warning systems and lights is usually done during preflight. I can't speak for the aircraft in question, but most modern aircraft I have flown have a cabin low pressure warning light that will illuminate at 10,000 feet cabin altitude. Some aircraft also have an audible warning as well as the light. When the warning light/audible warning illuminates/activates, pilot emergency actions are required. Normally this involves donning oxygen masks for all crew, activating passenger oxygen (unless the aircraft system does it automatically) and executing an emergency descent to some appropriate lower altitude (terrain permitting).

 

[arjay]

I apologize for the thread drift, but your post reminded me of something...

In April of last year I visited the Jungfraujoch, which is a saddle in the Swiss Alps near Grindelwald. At the viewing deck in the visitors center, I was 11,716 feet above sea level. (It was also 1° Fahrenheit, with a 20 mph wind!) Breathing was very difficult, I had to take every step carefully, and I was getting nauseated.

There are stores and shops there, and I was amazed watching the locals and the employees who were moving around normally, with no apparent difficulty. I stayed up there about 1 hour before taking the cogwheel train back down the mountain.

The view was magnificent, but I won't be going back there...

I live at 5000+' and have spent a lot of years skiing and hiking at higher elevations,but in my mid 50's to early 60s hiking long distances at 12-13000' was grueling and did affect my judgement significantly.

 

[Retired W4]

Acclimation to higher altitudes happens over time. I flew a U-8F (Queen Air) for five years and a U-21A (~KA-90) for three and spent a lot of time at 9-10,000 feet. Both were unpressurized. Running 8 miles a week helped as well. Unfortunately nothing can prepare you for life at 39,000.

 

[Gamecock]

10-4, beemerguy.

I had the exact same experience on Haleakalā.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Let us not forget the sad tale of Bo Rein who died under similar circumstances. Sent LSU football into a tailspin that they could not recover from until they hired Nick Saban.

 

[Rudi]

I still think it was strange to have only 1 pilot flying. I got to fly in a Lear Jet once, got to sit in the jump seat for 30 min. or so. Two pilots. Must have been a "major malfunction". Will be interesting to see the final report.

 

[ACORN]

I watched a YouTube video last night where an "expert" said it was not a loss of pressurization, citing the military chase plane pilot said he could see the pilot slumped over to the right. He stated that in the plane had lost pressurization the windows would be frosted and opaque. It's his opinion the pilot suffered a medical issue. It's also his opinion the passengers were awake during the spiral down.
Just putting this out for discussion.

 

[Gamecock]

I doubt it, Acorn. Someone would have figured out how to use the radio. And would have waved at the chase plane.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

he

War Story -
Once at Le Shima Island near Okinawa, we lost two guys in the ocean.
You might recall that's where Ernie Pyle was killed.
Then just after we lost those guys, a Japanese Trawler South of there pulled up a body. The remains appeared to be Military and wound up in the Morgue near Naha, Okinawa.
In a an effort to shut down those Urban Legends, 'they found a body and it could be my Husband. But nobody told me nothing,' our Flight Surgeon was invited down to view the remains. That was Dr. Larry Thompson out of Knoxville.
One lady was still on base and he told her in person, 'I viewed those remains.
I can guarantee you 100% that is not your Husband.'
Then he sent a letter to the other Lady.
Larry told us the body was in old fashioned Pressure Suit.
It had air in it so floated below the surface.
That's the type of suit the early U-2 Pilots wore.
So it's a good guess he was a Chinese U-2 Pilot.
We trained and provided U-2s to the Chinese who overflew Mainland China.