Late Made #3 NM Target

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I just received a late production New Model #3 in a target configuration
(i.e. 8" barrel, adjustable rear sight, half-moon front with bead).
The auction house listed it as having matching serial numbers on
frame, cylinder and barrel assembly. I cannot find any serial number
on the barrel (at least, not in the typical place behind the latch).
The latch is not numbered either. Was there another place S&W
put serial numbers on these?


Cheers!
Webb


Edit: Pics Added

​

 

[rct269]

Not to my knowledge. Then again, had I ever been so fortunate as to come across an 8" target, I'd have been so tickled I wouldn't even care about missing numbers.

In a more serious vein, the pieces numbered are those fit to the frame, and those fit to pieces fit to the frame-----for no other reason than to facilitate proper assembly following finishing. Given no numbers, or non matching numbers, one must assume they're looking at a "put together" gun.

Step One to confirm such a situation is to get a letter.

There is no Step Two.

Now I can explain unnumbered pieces on a gun that's been back to Springfield for work. I can also explain unnumbered pieces on top break targets made up from fixed sight guns to fill orders. I say I can, I can repeat Jinks' explanation for such---and either/both these scenarios are possibilities, but don't alter the fact this gun wasn't made that way at the get-go. BUT it most certainly could have been shipped that way---hence the letter.

Jinks' explanation goes like this: Service Department folks work on one gun at a time. Accordingly, there are no bits and pieces from other guns on their bench. Accordingly (again), there is no need to spend time numbering replacement parts.

Ralph Tremaine

Edited to add: I had a Model of '91 Target revolver---lettered as such (with an unnumbered latch). That had me in a tizzy! Jinks got me calmed down in short order. As an aside, Terry Wagner (THE been there done that EXPERT on these things) SNAPPED that sucker up right now when it was offered for sale along with the rest of my collection---didn't bother him a bit!

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,



Thank you for the response.

I wasn't "upset" per se. I was curious because the auction
description stated "[n]umbers are matching on frame ,
cylinder and barrel assembly" and I didn't see any serial
numbers on the barrel or latch. So, I wanted to check with
the more knowledgeable about serial number placement and
whether there was another place to check.


I do have a "factory" letter. It came with the revolver (see
below).


Cheers,
Webb

 

[rct269]

Okay, given that all you say is fact, here's how your 8" Target came to be:

A Sales Department fellow showed up in the Service Department with a fixed sight NM #3 from inventory, an 8" barrel, a target latch/sight and front sight from the Parts Department, and said "Make me an 8" Target." More likely he just sent them a note, and the Service folks had to do their own leg work.

In very short order, an 8" Target was delivered to the Sales folks, who had it shipped off to wherever your letter says it went.

Is any or all of this documentable fact? Probably not, but the Historical Foundation folks can tell you that one way or the other-----and whether it's documentable or not, it's the only game in town---according to Logic 101- Remedial--and I got an A in that----the second time around.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,



Thanks for the reply.

I am curious about the front sight on this revolver. It is a Lyman
made front sight and not the typical partridge style I've seen in
other pictures. Did S&W use them? The letter didn't address
which type of sight was used.

I'm also curious about the style of rear sight used. The notch
isn't like any "target style" sight I've seen. I am aware that
S&W used different blades but I don't have any info on what
was available from the Factory. There are white (yellowing)
bars on either side of the notch (I assume it is ivory).

I would like it if someone could post a pic of any fliers or
catalog pages that show and/or discuss target sights used on
the #3 NM.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[rct269]

Hi There,



Thanks for the reply.

I am curious about the front sight on this revolver. It is a Lyman
made front sight and not the typical partridge style I've seen in
other pictures. Did S&W use them? The letter didn't address
which type of sight was used.

I'm also curious about the style of rear sight used. The notch
isn't like any "target style" sight I've seen. I am aware that
S&W used different blades but I don't have any info on what
was available from the Factory. There are white (yellowing)
bars on either side of the notch (I assume it is ivory).

I would like it if someone could post a pic of any fliers or
catalog pages that show and/or discuss target sights used on
the #3 NM.

Cheers!
Webb

Yes, S&W used Lyman sights (as well as King (later on), Paine, their own, and others). That shown on yours has (should have) an Ivory bead. As an aside, there is somewhere on this forum Neal's 1977 article (The Evolution of Smith & Wesson Target Sights) It shows (almost) all of them. (If you can't pull it up, let me know, and I'll send a copy to you. When I say "(almost)", the article was prepared by observation by Neal, and a host of helpers, in view of the fact the factory kept virtually no records on sights. In other words, if they didn't see a sight on a gun, it's not treated in the article. Most of the omissions are fronts. There was at least one rear not treated (the "Large Screw Spring Up"), and I stumbled upon that one 20 some odd years ago. It's treated in the material on the forum-----and in the material I may send to you.

The so-called White Outline rear blade you describe came along later from S&W---and others (most notably King). I don't know that King made blades for your sight (the earliest), but if they did, it will most likely be marked KING. (As an aside, the teeny-tiny little screws encountered on pre-war sights can be handled very well by Lowes Kobalt Precision Screwdriver Set (Part #0525844). These tools claim to fame are the handles---which are large enough to hold with your hands----rather than with your fingers, as is the case with any/all so-called Jewelers Screwdivers-----which are very pretty---and pretty much useless!

My knee-jerk reaction to your description of your rear sight blade is it's a home made modification of the original (which had a U notch).

As another aside, I have a machinist drawing of the blade, the blade retainer, and the screw specifications, which has been used by countless others to have replacements made for lost/damaged originals. (The drawing treats with the smaller size sight, and needs to be scaled up for large frame guns---using a wider blade.)

As to sights used on NM #3's, there was only one. Any differing from the original are modifications or made to order replacements.

Under the heading of DUH!!!, it just dawned on me you may very well NOT have been describing a white outline sight blade, but a LYMAN IVORY SLIDE sight----has horizontal ivory bars on either side of the notch, and the proper sight picture is that which places the front bead in between the ivory bars----the original "three dot" sight. That sight is seldom seen today, but was "the hot set-up" back in the day. (It too is described in Neal's article.)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Under the heading of DUH!!!, it just dawned on me you may very well NOT have been describing a white outline sight blade, but a LYMAN IVORY SLIDE sight----has horizontal ivory bars on either side of the notch, and the proper sight picture is that which places the front bead in between the ivory bars----the original "three dot" sight. That sight is seldom seen today, but was "the hot set-up" back in the day. (It too is described in Neal's article.)

Thanks Again for your responses!

I'm sure this is the type of rear sight I have. The Lyman front
sight doesn't have an ivory bead. It appears to be a piece of
German silver. I'll try to post some pics later.

I'll look for that article later. Right now, I am cleaning a Schofield
I just received from FEDEX. Did you hear that FEDEX and UPS
are going to merge? The new company will be called FED-UP.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[rct269]

Hi There,




Thanks Again for your responses!

I'm sure this is the type of rear sight I have. The Lyman front
sight doesn't have an ivory bead. It appears to be a piece of
German silver. I'll try to post some pics later.

I'll look for that article later. Right now, I am cleaning a Schofield
I just received from FEDEX. Did you hear that FEDEX and UPS
are going to merge? The new company will be called FED-UP.


Cheers!
Webb

FED-UP is an apt name!

Having loaded my Field & Brush Mower into the back of my big truck, and either failed to set the brake, or set it improperly, it ended up on the ground with bent handlebars and a bent battery shelf. A brief phone call and 300 and some odd dollars later, I have new replacements on the way. They arrived---more or less! There was no battery shelf, but some sort of little soup can sized and shape something made of plastic. Another phone call resulted in a UPS driver showing up to pick up the little something made of plastic---which I handed to him along with the appropriate paper work. ALAS, I had not repacked it in any way, shape, or matter---and had no intention of doing so; and he refused to accept it. I said "Fine", and took it back. That worked! He scowled, and left with it. I was on my way to FED-UP, but he beat me to it!

There IS A GOD!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[opoefc]

Not to hi-jack this thread, however if someone has a NM#3 Target in original .450 caliber, I have an ammo box for it ( Walter Winans had several of those NM#3 Targets in that caliber, that are in Forum member's collections, I believe. ) PM me. Ed

 

[TripleLock]

Not to hi-jack this thread, however if someone has a NM#3 Target in original .450 caliber, I have an ammo box for it ( Walter Winans had several of those NM#3 Targets in that caliber, that are in Forum member's collections, I believe. ) PM me. Ed

PM sent.

Jim

 

[rct269]

Not to hi-jack this thread, however if someone has a NM#3 Target in original .450 caliber, I have an ammo box for it ( Walter Winans had several of those NM#3 Targets in that caliber, that are in Forum member's collections, I believe. ) PM me. Ed

You're always welcome---hi-jack or no hi-jack!!---never mind this isn't my thread!

For any of you who are not familiar with "opoefc", he's one of those who's been there and done that since forever!!---and has likely forgotten more about things S&W than the rest of us know---ALL of us put together!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

LYMAN IVORY BEAD FRONT SIGHT

While for the antiques, these sights come under the heading as fairly as common as dirt. You may wish to put a wanted to buy ad here on the forum.

You'll want to specify the height (above the rib) if for no other reason than it'll look right.

Another possibility is/may be I am dimly aware of replacement beads being available-----and that's all I know about them---no knowledge of who has them, how they're attached, nor anything else---was fortunate enough to have never had the need.

And speaking of having a need, I have a complete (essentially as new/and unnumbered) latch/target sight for the large frame top breaks I bought to create a fall back position in the event a rather special NM #3 Target I had with a broken latch could not be repaired. "Rather special" translates to it was a NM #3 Target (lettered as such) chambered not in 32-44 or 38-44, but for "38 WINCHESTER CTG"---as stamped right on the barrel. It's available to anyone with the need at the price I paid---$200---in 2015, because I stumbled upon a WIZARD gunsmith who fixed the broken one. (I say "fixed", more like a restoration-----you couldn't tell it was ever broken even if I showed you where to look!)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I will have to look into a replacement. I think I would like to go with
a partridge style front for my personal tastes. Meanwhile, here are
some pics of the sights. I would like to know the purpose of the screw
on the underside of the rear sight (last pic). An elevation adjustment?

Cheers!
Webb

 

[rct269]

Yes---elevation adjustment--take care if/when you might remove it for a bath or whatever. It's only .119" in diameter, and .108" long----little, bitty devil! You'll want to use a magnetized screwdriver------especially when you go to put it back in.

As an aside, and this is applicable to later hand ejector sights---may or may not apply to these earlier guns: One full turn of an adjusting screw moves the point of impact 1" for each ten yards of range.

Ralph Tremaine