Elections have consequences

[biku324]

As will Europe.

Gaza City is surrounded; pull out children and less obvious civilians through a half-dozen corridors. All MAMs get biometric enrolled and checked against Mossad's database. Once the civilians are out, flood the underground with seawater and cap it. The hostages are screwed anyway.

Open hospitals and refugee centers in southern Gaza to facilitate humanitarian relief.

Negotiate with the Palestinian Authority to take over Gaza as hostilities end; remove all Israeli 'settlers' from the Palestinian West Bank.

That will slow the killing for a while, at least.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Patrick Swayze a bouncer in the cult move Roadhouse made a quote "that nobody wins a fight''!

I believe he also said "Pain don't hurt"

 

[smoothshooter]

It appears that the civilian deaths are not just the predictable collateral damage that is pretty hard to completely avoid, but a result of conscious decisions by Hamas to mix military equipment and personnel into civilian populations. Shameful, and tragic, but not a result of Israeli choices.

I have a feeling that there is a deeper meaning to the original attack and other conduct by Hamas, because I really can't believe they were stupid enough to think there would not be a staggering response. A surprise attack with hostage taking, rapes, murder of non-combatants and other atrocities seems like a good way to generate a high level of anger.

They knew, as did a lot of us, that enormous pressure from the current Administration would force the Israeli's to put on the brakes before the mission was accomplished and Hamas eradicated.
And that is how it is starting to play out.

 

[pantannojack]

I'll probably be banned for this but the only reason we talk about "civilian" causalities is because we've not experienced an actual war in our country for over 100 years. There has NEVER been a war without civilian causalities. I'm not excusing or encouraging civilian casualties, just stating a fact from history.

I never got the idea that civilians are worth more than uniformed individuals.

 

[Beemerguy53]

One week ago today, at her request, I took my girlfriend to Dachau. It was her first visit there. (I've been there several times, but not for about 15 years...)

Walking through that place, you can feel the spirits of the dead. The gas chamber...the spot where the gallows stood...the pockmarked block wall with the blood ditch in front of it...the two mass graves, which were just pits where ashes were dumped...the crematorium...all there.

It's very sad, and somber, and totally quiet there. Even in the large outdoor yard, where the former barracks buildings stood, people speak in hushed whispers. Outside the former administration building, the phrase "Never again" appears on a wall in several languages. Never again, indeed...

Spend even a little time in Dachau, and you'll understand why the Israelis are determined to destroy Hamas. I wish them total success, and hope they achieve victory as quickly as possible...

 

[biku324]

Even if you kill every member of Hamas, it will be generations before everyone else in the Middle East can forgive how many others, especially children, you killed to do so.

This will never be 'over.'

 

[NYlakesider]

Even if you kill every member of Hamas, it will be generations before everyone else in the Middle East can forgive how many others, especially children, you killed to do so.

This will never be 'over.'

I remember that my Science teacher in high school said there never will be a perpetual motion device made.

 

[Beemerguy53]

...This will never be 'over.'

And I think that was exactly what Hamas wanted when they launched the attack on Israel on October 7...to pour fuel on the fire...

 

[biku324]

Yup. And the Israelis reacted predictably, playing right into the Hamas strategy.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Yup. And the Israelis reacted predictably, playing right into the Hamas strategy.

I don't know that I would characterize the Israelis' response as "playing into the Hamas strategy." I think they've just accepted the inevitability of a perpetual struggle for their survival, and they're at the point where they don't care what the rest of the world -- including their allies -- thinks.

Rockets fired now-and-then into Israel...the occasional terrorist attack...the bellowing and blustering of Hamas hotheads...those can be tolerated as the cost of living next-door to sworn enemies. But invading Israel on the Sabbath and murdering more than a thousand unarmed, defenseless civilians, many of them women and children, is something else, and demands a strong response, especially from a nation founded on the philosophy of "never again."

I remember an interview with Netanyahu several years ago, wherein he pointed out all that Hamas had done and was doing. The building of the tunnels, the acquisition of a formidable array of offensive weaponry, the adoption of terrorist tactics, etc...all of these were, and are, strong indicators that Hamas and its backers don't want peace.

The civilian casualties among the Palestinian population are truly heartbreaking, which is why I wrote in my post above that I hope Israel achieves victory as quickly as possible. But I don't know what else they could have been expected to do in the aftermath of October 7. There are no good responses, only bad and worse responses...but turning the other cheek was definitely not an option.

 

[biku324]

I surely have no answers, nor do any Americans. There is no deterrence in even overwhelming use of force when your enemy doesn't care if they or innocents die.

 

[NYlakesider]

I surely have no answers, nor do any Americans. There is no deterrence in even overwhelming use of force when your enemy doesn't care if they or innocents die.

Well I remember that the Japanese were a little light on the sanctity of life issue. You hit them hard enough with plenty of serious weaponry and they finely saw the light.

 

[biku324]

And today is just like 1941, and Hamas just like a militarized Japanese nation.

Nothing in this conflict is within our experience.

 

[NFrameFred]

And today is just like 1941, and Hamas just like a militarized Japanese nation.

Nothing in this conflict is within our experience.

The people haven't changed . . . just the weapons and tactics.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

When your enemy has one overriding non-negotiable demand..."We want you dead!"...your options regarding negotiating are non-existent. Hamas is finding out the flaw in that negotiating tactic now.

 

[biku324]

So if every Hamas fighter is killed, no Palestinian will be angry about being dispossessed, cities and homes destroyed, and will simply shrug off dead children and noncombatants by the thousands as 'bygones?'

Not thinking that is how it will work out.

 

[Mike 139]

Newsmax had footage today of Palestinians walking out of Gaza with their hand up and some carrying white flags…. It's a well known fact that hamas has a command and control center ,including a tunnel network complete with generators and several thousand gallons of diesel stored under Shifa Hospital in Gaza….Fox and Newsmax has reporters on the ground with IDF and report daily…..1400 murdered, including infants, and some burned alive, does NOT leave one with good feelings about the Subjects that did this….Israel's prime concern is with rescuing the 240 hostages safely and ELIMINATING hamas.

They showed footage of a tunnel entrance/ exit in a children's playground, found by IDF in Gaza.

In 2005 , Israeli settlers and Soldiers left Gaza, turning it over to the Palestine Authority….who put hamas in charge.

As far as the Israelis , they have been there since before 1200 BC…well over 3000 years……If I were younger and physically able, I'd be over there helping the IDF any way I could.

 

[biku324]

Hamas is despicable. The Palestinian Authority didn't put them in charge; they won an election, then Fatah officials were either taken as prisoners, executed, or expelled in a a battle between Jine 10 and 15, 2007.

 

[Ugly Hombre]

The Oct 7th Hamas terrorist attack was a "Pearl Harbor" for Israel.


Imo they to have clean out Hamas- most here have probably seen the savage and horrific acts Hamas did to the defenseless elderly, the women and the children- according to reports they were directed to such things by Hamas leadership who are hiding far away and safe. We can't know for sure now who is directing Hamas leadership- but we will.


The U.K. free press showed the horror of the raid clear. I won't post it but it was satanic Nazi level directed evil.



If such a thing happened to our country and the victims were our people no way would anyone be calling for a cease fire.


Just like Pearl Harbor.


ymmv

 

[biku324]

There's not an apples-to-apples comparison from Pearl Harbor to Oct.7.

Trying to put this level of killing into an American context is folly; Hamas is a terror organization, not a national military power. Israel is a huge military power and they immediately responded with overwhelming force - it was months before we could hit back at the Japanese even slightly.

This is nothing like an American war.