Utter Terminal Ballistic Failure....

[rwsmith]

Years ago I started an experiment to test the viability of heavy 9mm lead bullets as a defensive round. I was stymied by a lack of available bullets (not ready to get into casting for experimental purposes) and lack of a suitable medium. I had these 9mm 160 grain SWCHP bullets left over and I got the idea to use Play-Doh from the internet (Gelatin is expensive, messy and needs refrigeration) and it sounded like a way to get the project finished. So I cooked up about 20 lbs.

I loaded them with Accurate #7 and Chrono'd about 950 fps out of a 5903. Then I shot them into the Play-Doh. The results were negative in the extreme.

The retained weight from the 160 gr bullet was 128.8 grains with a loss of 31.2 grains.

The 'expanded' confused diameter was .455" on one axis and .359" rotated 90 degrees.

As seen in the picture, it expanded nicely down to the bottom of the hollow opening, but nearly every bit of lead that expanded sheared off.

I don't have a number for inches of penetration and it wouldn't matter anyway because Play-Doh doesn't have any standard for penetration.

Conclusion: These would 'work' as a defensive round, but much better and reliable performance can be had from available ammo.

No real surprise but I was hoping for better retained weight and expanded diameter than nil on both counts.

Well, on to the next project.


PS: One thing that enabled me to complete this is the improved state of my health AS LONG AS I can get the meds I need that are on constant backorder because they are prescribing it for weight loss when it was created and produced as a diabetic drug. (Ozempic) I've got a horror story that would be entertaining reading in the Lounge so maybe I'll post it there.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Roughly how hard are the bullets?

In the 1980's I used old phone books for my expansion tests, and milk jugs, and maybe an old shirt or pants. Phone books mostly don't exist any more, the kids grew up and we don't use much milk as opposed to the 4 t0 5 gallons a week we used to use. And When we moved to the condo, the old hole ridden cloths are kept to a minimum. I was hoping that the Play-Doh idea would work.

Ivan

 

[steelslaver]

Home made Play Dough would work IF enough people started using it and reporting results. Bullet type, weight, caliper, velocity, expansion and penetration. Once you had a good base line of various loads, you could compare your results

 

[Greyman50]

Back in the 70’s at the range we would soak rolls of paper hand towels to shoot to test assorted ammo. Local LEOs enjoyed testing some of their ammo too. Had a detective that resembled Dirty Harry and carried a 6” Python in a shoulder rig, he could shoot . What fun we had…

 

[Forrest r]

IMHO:

Too much emphasis is put upon the "perfect" hp expansion and weight retention. The gun rags have fueled this for years and the keyboard commando's keep parroting what they've read.

Myself, I've cast/tested a lot of hp's and different alloys. Add to that the countless hp's I've swaged over the decades testing hp pins/shapes/sizes/depths.

I'd retest that hp/load in wet news print. Bundles are easy to make, simply take 12" of newspapers and duct tape them together and put them in a cooler. Make 3 or 3 bundles and then fill the cooler with water. Set a bundle out at the distance you want to test at and staple a target to the bundle and test away. I'd be looking for the number of wound channels the broken off pieces of the hp made. I'd also look at the depth/penetration of the bullets main body.

You my have 1 heck of a nasty/effective load/hp and don't even realize it.

Everything I've read & tested showed the wetpack is +/- twice as dense as 10% bellists gel. Meaning 10" of penetration in ballistics gel will produce +/- 5" of penetration in wetpack. What I like about wetpack is you will be able to see the wound channel when peeling off the layers wetpack. Along with finding the separate pieces of the hp and the ability to measure the penetration depth.

An excellent example of why a hp doesn't have to have the "perfect" weight retention and penetration is the Ness hp. A picture of the Ness hp, a cast hp with the hp cut open showing the hp's size/depth.

That bullet was designed to keep pests out of yards/gardens along with being designed so it wouldn't ricochet. It weighs 135gr as cast.

I made a 1600fps load and tested them @ 50yds into wetpack. They made +/- 2" hole in the wetpack that was 4 1/2 to 5" deep.

These are the fragments and bullet bases I found in the wetpack.

At the end of the day that hp wouldn't pass the rag writer weight retention test.

In reality that bullet is down right nasty. I couldn't count the number of wound channels that fragged pieces of hp created in the wetpack. It turned everything to confetti it touched in the wetpack. Tried that same load/bullet of a couple groundhogs at 60/70yds hitting them in their sides. It dropped them on the spot & upon examination that hp left holes in the groundhogs that I could put my fist into.

 

[Venom6]

The 147 gr. subsonic 9mm loads for self-defense have largely (but not entirely) fallen from favor over the past decade. Well-known (and sometimes controversial) gunwriter Ed Sanow has written extensively on the subject, with much documentation of police gunfight results, and according to him (and others) the results are mostly dismal. Certainly the rounds have worked in some cases, but taken as whole most of the subject matter experts agree that a good 115 or 124 gr. hollowpoint is much to be preferred over the 147s.

 

[rwsmith]

I can barely scratch them......

Roughly how hard are the bullets?

In the 1980's I used old phone books for my expansion tests, and milk jugs, and maybe an old shirt or pants. Phone books mostly don't exist any more, the kids grew up and we don't use much milk as opposed to the 4 t0 5 gallons a week we used to use. And When we moved to the condo, the old hole ridden cloths are kept to a minimum. I was hoping that the Play-Doh idea would work.

Ivan

....with my thumbnail. I can possibly devise something to get an approximation of Brinell Hardness in time.

The first time around I used a bale of copy paper, got zero expansion, mostly due to hard bullets, and the results were just not useful. It might be better to try a few in milk jugs full of water. The play-doh seems to work as a medium. This was my first try with it, of course everything at the range was fighting me, but I did get the one test that I needed done, with the 160 grain hollow point.

I do have some pulp saved that might help in backing up the play-doh. I'll probably be doing more of this as time goes by.

I had built a box to contain the dough, but I had it in 6 - 1 gallon plastic bags, so I set the dough on top of the box. I should have put it in the box because the bags exploded and the dough went flying just like I saw on the internet.

 

[rwsmith]

I think you are right.....

IMHO:

Too much emphasis is put upon the "perfect" hp expansion and weight retention. The gun rags have fueled this for years and the keyboard commando's keep parroting what they've read.

Myself, I've cast/tested a lot of hp's and different alloys. Add to that the countless hp's I've swaged over the decades testing hp pins/shapes/sizes/depths.

I'd retest that hp/load in wet news print. Bundles are easy to make, simply take 12" of newspapers and duct tape them together and put them in a cooler. Make 3 or 3 bundles and then fill the cooler with water. Set a bundle out at the distance you want to test at and staple a target to the bundle and test away. I'd be looking for the number of wound channels the broken off pieces of the hp made. I'd also look at the depth/penetration of the bullets main body.

You my have 1 heck of a nasty/effective load/hp and don't even realize it.

Everything I've read & tested showed the wetpack is +/- twice as dense as 10% bellists gel. Meaning 10" of penetration in ballistics gel will produce +/- 5" of penetration in wetpack. What I like about wetpack is you will be able to see the wound channel when peeling off the layers wetpack. Along with finding the separate pieces of the hp and the ability to measure the penetration depth.

An excellent example of why a hp doesn't have to have the "perfect" weight retention and penetration is the Ness hp. A picture of the Ness hp, a cast hp with the hp cut open showing the hp's size/depth.

That bullet was designed to keep pests out of yards/gardens along with being designed so it wouldn't ricochet. It weighs 135gr as cast.

I made a 1600fps load and tested them @ 50yds into wetpack. They made +/- 2" hole in the wetpack that was 4 1/2 to 5" deep.

These are the fragments and bullet bases I found in the wetpack.

At the end of the day that hp wouldn't pass the rag writer weight retention test.

In reality that bullet is down right nasty. I couldn't count the number of wound channels that fragged pieces of hp created in the wetpack. It turned everything to confetti it touched in the wetpack. Tried that same load/bullet of a couple groundhogs at 60/70yds hitting them in their sides. It dropped them on the spot & upon examination that hp left holes in the groundhogs that I could put my fist into.

All of the lead that was torn off the bullet ended up in the clay and probably produced something of a shotgun effect, so it probably would be more effective than I gave it credit for. The main part of the bullet still weighed more than a 124 grain RN bullet. The explosive splattering of the clay on impact was kinda awesome. I sure wouldn't want to be hit with it.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

rwsmith,

Not sure I understand why you regard this as a failure. The retained weight was greater than the initial weight of most 9mm bullets. How was the penetration?

??

 

[IAM Rand]

Okay people, stop with the bullets already. Has anyone ever complained with what bullet they were shop with? AND, who decided that shooting jell-o or playdough or ..........? I have seen Kentucky Ballistics use life-like jell-o with a fake skeleton inside. That makes it a little more realistic but still, the body is an amazing thing. It can be very unpredictable. It is not this monolithic jell-o block or even a jell-o with a skeleton in it. We have gas, food bones of different consistency (even within our own bodies not to mention between people). Some people are shot while moving and some standing still. Some through a medium like drywall or a car door/glass.

Please forget about bullets and more about location. Do I believe that bullets play a part, yes. All things being equal, location will rule the day. Find/make a quality bullet and practice, practice, practice.

 

[rwsmith]

I didn't think of that....

rwsmith,

Not sure I understand why you regard this as a failure. The retained weight was greater than the initial weight of most 9mm bullets. How was the penetration?

??

..until Forrest pointed out that out. I was in a big muddle from have to get to the range on the one day I could go, and when I went I had a 'program' of things to do and some things fought me all the way. My wife is gun savvy, but she had problems, too and I had to help her a lot. The bullet expanded, but shed all of its petals which I thought was a bad thing, but maybe not.

All I can say about the penetration (since my bags got mixed up, was that it was good, it went through several three pound bags of clay about 3" thick each, and again, the strike on the bags was really IMPRESSIVE, it tore a couple of the gallon ziploc bags wide open. So I suppose I should amend my conclusion to one that I would definitely not want to be hit with one of those heavy lead hollow points at 950 fps.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

AFA those Ness Hollowpoints are concerned...

According to what I can find, i.e., the HG #38 Ness Safety Hollowpoint casts (per MP Molds) as 150gr in 0.311"... That couldn't be a 9mm bullet in the images!

Can't imagine how a design like that could be used in 9mm: could never get them to feed or even fit in a magazine. The Federal 38 Special +P 135gr HST Micro needs to be loaded as a wadcutter (or, close to one), and that's in much longer 38 Special or 357 Magnum brass...

Cheers!

 

[rwsmith]

You are absolutely correct...

Okay people, stop with the bullets already. Has anyone ever complained with what bullet they were shop with? AND, who decided that shooting jell-o or playdough or ..........? I have seen Kentucky Ballistics use life-like jell-o with a fake skeleton inside. That makes it a little more realistic but still, the body is an amazing thing. It can be very unpredictable. It is not this monolithic jell-o block or even a jell-o with a skeleton in it. We have gas, food bones of different consistency (even within our own bodies not to mention between people). Some people are shot while moving and some standing still. Some through a medium like drywall or a car door/glass.

Please forget about bullets and more about location. Do I believe that bullets play a part, yes. All things being equal, location will rule the day. Find/make a quality bullet and practice, practice, practice.

...but this was to satisfy my own curiousity, I love to experiment and this was a good opportunity since I'm feeling up to putting in the effort, which is unusual for me. It doesn't hurt anybody to do the test and discuss the results. Other people might be curious also. I'm not going to replace my commercial 125 gr. JHPs with big lead bullets of my own making for SD and I don't propose that anybody else do it, either. And I'll surely do a lot of practice to make whatever I shoot more effective.

 

[rwsmith]

This is what I think....

AFA those Ness Hollowpoints are concerned...

According to what I can find, i.e., the HG #38 Ness Safety Hollowpoint casts (per MP Molds) as 150gr in 0.311"... That couldn't be a 9mm bullet in the images!

Can't imagine how a design like that could be used in 9mm: could never get them to feed or even fit in a magazine. The Federal 38 Special +P 135gr HST Micro needs to be loaded as a wadcutter (or, close to one), and that's in much longer 38 Special or 357 Magnum brass...

Cheers!

I could only find a few 160 grain or heavier bullets on the web. The ones that were heavier had to be modifed by me (hollow points or dum-dums) to make some sort of expanding point, but the lead was too hard to get any expansion , so they all ended up at 160 gr. But I had some of the HPs left over that were promising if I had a decent media. Enter the Play-Doh. Again, these were bought some years ago and I don't know what mold they were produced from. As mentioned on another thread, one of the Flat Nose bullets I had appeared to have been made from a .38 SWC sized down to 9mm and these HPs may have been produced the same, or similar, way.

Finding load data for 160 grain and heavier bullets is very difficult, and seating the bullet with a powder charge to get decent velocity was tough without bulging the bullet or the case. As you can see, too much of a shoulder protrudes from the case. (Some other leftover bullets I loaded with 2.4 gr of Titegroup so as NOT to have seating problems just to shoot them at targets) The best powders I could find for my experiment were Unique and Accurate #7, both of which I have.

So I have to take extra care to produce a cartridge to work in this configuration, otherwise they will not chamber well. That is indeed a 160 grain 9mm bullet, as I weighed and measured them myself to be double sure of the loading I could use. The reason it is out so far is because if I try to compress the powder, either the bullet or the case bulges and it won't chamber. Loaded they measured 1.165" OAL so they fit in the mag and chamber. The protruded shoulder make it so they can plunk test with a little pressure.

On another thread I do describe how I have trouble loading these bullets, but they can be made to work.

BTW If I can pull a bullet, I'll get a total length for you.

 

[venomballistics]

IME, the final appearance of the bullet is not important, it's just the tool. The wound cavity is the job.
Don't get stuck on weight retention or expanded diameter.
Depth and volume of the wound cavity are what matters.
Did it deliver?

Also IME, a cast lead bullet does not need much to get busy expanding. smaller, shallower point cavities with some flare seem to get things started quite well. Once started, cast lead keeps at it till the energy is spent. Don't expect them to retain weight like a JHP. It simply can't. it's just something you need to accept

 

[venomballistics]

The 147 gr. subsonic 9mm loads for self-defense have largely (but not entirely) fallen from favor over the past decade. Well-known (and sometimes controversial) gunwriter Ed Sanow has written extensively on the subject, with much documentation of police gunfight results, and according to him (and others) the results are mostly dismal. Certainly the rounds have worked in some cases, but taken as whole most of the subject matter experts agree that a good 115 or 124 gr. hollowpoint is much to be preferred over the 147s.

fairly close to my own findings where pistols are concerned .... The 147 starts to gain favor in a PCC, however

 

[oldbrownhat]

...I'd retest that hp/load in wet news print. Bundles are easy to make, simply take 12" of newspapers and duct tape them together and put them in a cooler...

I used a similar setup with wet newsprint and 1/2" plywood to test 240 gr Hornady JHP and 265 gr FP (discontinued) from my Marlin 1894 many years ago and it worked very well.

Results at 25 yds. The 240gr. made it to (dented) the last board. The 265 penetrated the last board and stuck in the newsprint.

The 147 gr. subsonic 9mm loads for self-defense have largely (but not entirely) fallen from favor over the past decade...

AFAIK Our RCMP are issued Federal HP in that weight.

 

[smoothshooter]

....with my thumbnail. I can possibly devise something to get an approximation of Brinell Hardness in time.

The first time around I used a bale of copy paper, got zero expansion, mostly due to hard bullets, and the results were just not useful. It might be better to try a few in milk jugs full of water. The play-doh seems to work as a medium. This was my first try with it, of course everything at the range was fighting me, but I did get the one test that I needed done, with the 160 grain hollow point.

I do have some pulp saved that might help in backing up the play-doh. I'll probably be doing more of this as time goes by.

I had built a box to contain the dough, but I had it in 6 - 1 gallon plastic bags, so I set the dough on top of the box. I should have put it in the box because the bags exploded and the dough went flying just like I saw on the internet.

Beware that Play Dough is somewhat temperature sensitive. It gets a lot harder in cold temperatures.

 

[rwsmith]

You right....

IME, the final appearance of the bullet is not important, it's just the tool. The wound cavity is the job.
Don't get stuck on weight retention or expanded diameter.
Depth and volume of the wound cavity are what matters.
Did it deliver?

Also IME, a cast lead bullet does not need much to get busy expanding. smaller, shallower point cavities with some flare seem to get things started quite well. Once started, cast lead keeps at it till the energy is spent. Don't expect them to retain weight like a JHP. It simply can't. it's just something you need to accept

... and I've changed my way of thinking. Apparently it DID expand as it traveled through the medium and the lead it shed is in the dough somewhere and subsequently would do a heck of a lot of damage. The ones that I shot into paper were bent up a little but didn't expand for beans. It's possible they would have overpenetrated in the real world. I'll try to find some pictures.

 

[rwsmith]

I have a few left....

fairly close to my own findings where pistols are concerned .... The 147 starts to gain favor in a PCC, however

Maybe I'll try one out of my Kel tec or Ruger.