Appreciating our First Amendment...

[Beemerguy53]

Here's a little story from Britain that should make us all appreciate our free speech rights under the First Amendment...

"Three women who displayed images of paragliders during a protest in central London have been found guilty of arousing suspicion that they were supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation."

Think about that. They didn't say anything. They didn't do anything. They had images attached to their jackets or backpacks that could arouse suspicion that they were supporters of a banned organization, and that alone was enough to convict them of violating Britain's anti-terrorism laws. The exact language of the charge is:

"On 14 October, in a public place, namely Whitehall, carried or displayed an article, namely an image displaying a paraglider, in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that she is a supporter of a proscribed organisation...contrary to section 13(1) Terrorism Act 2000."

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this...unbelievable.

Three women convicted of displaying paraglider stickers at London protest | The Crown Prosecution Service

Two women charged with terrorism offence, as police appeal to identify two other protestors | Metropolitan Police

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

What a lot of people don't realize or understand is this. There is NO country, regardless of governance, that allows the freedom as we have here in the United States. That even includes Great Britain, Canada, Austrailia, et.al. The people of those nations are well aware of it and are generally content with that fact.

Many of the things that we see posted on line here would result in a visit from the local constabulary with a warning to knock off whatever it is you posted.

One of the reasons we should be thankful.

 

[Rustyt1953]

 

[Alk8944]

The real issue is the British so-called system of "Criminal Justice. There is no justice. In their system you are presumed to be guilty until you can prove your innocence! Exactly the opposite of our system. This is one of the reasons our constitution reads the way it does!! Many features of the U.S. Constitution were written directly to correct the injustices of the British system!

 

[Beemerguy53]

What a lot of people don't realize or understand is this. There is NO country, regardless of governance, that allows the freedom as we have here in the United States. That even includes Great Britain, Canada, Austrailia, et.al. The people of those nations are well aware of it and are generally content with that fact...

When anti-2A folks cite Britain's gun laws as an example of what we ought to be doing here, I tell them, very bluntly, that I will not take advice on how to structure a government from a nation that has a monarchy; an official state religion; and legal censorship...

 

[Ματθιας]

You might want took at the case of Douglas Mackey who was sentenced to 7 months for making Hillary memes.

 

[Onomea]

I disagree.

I've read about the Hamas attack on Israel, and what they did to the Israelis they encountered.

I guess I think the women in the UK expressing support for the Hamas atrocities, after they were well known and published, were fortunate that they were arrested, the UK being a civilized country, rather than being dealt with summarily by those who saw them.

I don't think hate speech gets an unlimited pass under our freedom of speech 1st amendment. Don't think it should elsewhere either.

How Hamas Weaponized Sexual Violence on Oct. 7 - The New York Times

 

[Beemerguy53]

I disagree.

I've read about the Hamas attack on Israel, and what they did to the Israelis they encountered.

I guess I think the women in the UK expressing support for the Hamas atrocities, after they were well known and published, were fortunate that they were arrested, the UK being a civilized country, rather than being dealt with summarily by those who saw them.

I don't think hate speech gets an unlimited pass under our freedom of speech 1st amendment. Don't think it should elsewhere either.

With all due respect, the issue here for me isn't whether or not somebody supports Hamas -- I most certainly do not -- but the fact that the freedom of expression we take for granted here is a crime in Britain. The defendants in this case said and did nothing, beyond displaying images of paragliders...and that was enough to get them charged.

So-called "hate speech" is protected under the First Amendment...

Is Hate Speech Protected by the First Amendment?

 

[Beemerguy53]

You might want took at the case of Douglas Mackey who was sentenced to 7 months for...

...election interference, not meme-making. Here's the DOJ press release:

Eastern District of New York | Social Media Influencer Douglass Mackey Sentenced after Conviction for Election Interference in 2016 Presidential Race | United States Department of Justice

 

[LVSteve]

The real issue is the British so-called system of "Criminal Justice. There is no justice. In their system you are presumed to be guilty until you can prove your innocence! Exactly the opposite of our system. This is one of the reasons our constitution reads the way it does!! Many features of the U.S. Constitution were written directly to correct the injustices of the British system!

I don't know where you read that but it's flat out wrong.

See here. Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia

What has changed in my lifetime is that your stoney silence may now be considered a negative by the jury. Are juries here instructed not to infer anything from an assertion of 5th amendment rights? I don't know, I've never got that far in jury selection. Do juries view pleading the 5th as a negative regardless of a judge's instructions? Well, people are people...

There are some peculiarities in the UK with regard to DUI and tech devices. A refusal to provide a breath sample is an offense and will get you the same punishment as actually blowing in the box and lighting the red LED. This came about in the drive to stamp out drink driving.

Similarly, refusing to provide the password to a locked device or encrypted device is an offense. This one goes after child pornographers and terrorists. Now, there are other, usually time consuming and expensive, ways to break into devices. I guess the UK decided that was too much trouble, and passed what can be considered as a heavy "obstruction of justice" offense. I've seen similar here. "Destruction of evidence" is a wonderful catchall. If I regularly delete emails I don't need or do regular hard drive maintenance that erases even the fragments of deleted files, how am I to know if that is "evidence".

 

[lihpster]

My brother was a paraglider pilot. He was not affiliated with Hamas in any way. He did it because he thought it was fun. Scares the ever-loving heebie jeebies out of me, but whatever. Now, let's say he was on vacation in the UK and was wearing one of his many t-shirts with a paraglider on it? He walks out of a shop to see a large crowd passing by and suddenly he's arrested for "suspicion of supporting a terrorist organization". Now, his barrister would have an easier time proving that he was innocent, but in the US he never would have to. So glad I live here.

 

[Rustyt1953]

I no longer am a British citizen. I use the other lane now.

 

[Ματθιας]

...election interference, not meme-making. Here's the DOJ press release:

Eastern District of New York | Social Media Influencer Douglass Mackey Sentenced after Conviction for Election Interference in 2016 Presidential Race | United States Department of Justice

Was it REALLY that or was it because he dared to meme a member of the ruling elite? Make an example of him? I mean we all know how fair the "justice system" is as we watch weaponized legalism and lawfare playout before our very eyes, right? Anybody can get a fair trial in NY, right?

 

[petepeterson]

Was it REALLY that or was it because he dared to meme a member of the ruling elite? Make an example of him? I mean we all know how fair the "justice system" is as we watch weaponized legalism and lawfare playout before our very eyes, right? Anybody can get a fair trial in NY, right?

No, it was election interference. Didn't you read the linked propa....err, press release? The DOJ said so. They've had a stellar record of no bias or agenda recently. Gotta go with what they say.

 

[robvious]

I cherish ALL my rights... BIG FAN of the 2nd... not a big fan of the 16th or 18th.. but the 21st fixed one of those..

 

[twodog max]

After recent events in the last several years putting any stock in any statement by the so called Department of Justice is misplaced.
Make no mistake the First Amendment is under attack in the USA not only speech but the other aspects as well.

 

[biku324]

Tinfoil hat time.

By golly, they can take away my tongue when they pry it from my cold, dead esophagus!

 

[twodog max]

Mocking the truth does not make it untrue.
Pay attention!

 

[biku324]

If you want the truth, talk to Maria Ressa. She actually suffered and suffers persecution for championing free speech in the Philippines. We have an excess of jawboning about nothing here, not actaul, factual attempts to restrict free speech by anyone or anything. You can't ask Alexei Navalny about persecution over free speech anymore.

Our free speech is under attack here by no one. If it was, one always has access to the courts. Folks need to appreciate what we have and the system of redress, under the Constitution, which protects us.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

"Europe was created by history, America by philosophy." Margaret Thatcher
Even the UK with its much celebrated parliamentary system remains basically an authoritarian society with a democratic veneer. In the 1930s the UK and the other erstwhile "liberal democracies" dealt with their native fasicsts by fascist methods, outlawing political uniforms, proscribing them as "terrorist" organizations, restricting free expression and assembly, while Communist sympathizers-the Cambridge Five, e.g.-were able to infiltrate British government agencies and institutions. Oswald Mosley of the BUF is often described as the "Worst Briton" of the 20th Century, in reality his influence was on a par with Gus Hall or George Lincoln Rockwell. William O. Douglas opposed efforts to restrict or outlaw Communists in this country by descring them as "miserable merchants of unwanted ideas." I liken the failure of the Communists and Socialists in this country to failed firearm designs, failed consumer products-bomb movies. People saw what they offered-and rejected it.