Smith & Wesson Model 19 - The mystery of the WHITE (!) Baughman ramp insert

[French Grumpy Bear]

Hello,

Having recently acquired a 1978 Smith & Wesson Model 19-3 with a 4" barrel, I'm still puzzled by a detail that seems astonishing.

The weapon's front sight is a Baughman-type ramp cut from the bar stock (as was still the case at the time).
So far, so good...

But then, the front sight insert isn't red, as usual, but... WHITE!

The Smith specialists will no doubt be able to enlighten me on this point, but this is the first time I've seen a white insert of this type!
I've seen red inserts fade over time, but never to the point of becoming white.
And here, it's REALLY white and looks totally original.

The gun is in excellent condition, has never been modified (original as it left the factory), has had only one owner before me (he kept it until the end, rest his soul), has fired very little and has been kept in very good condition.
It is therefore highly improbable that it has faded, and the only "modification" made to this revolver was the addition, at the time, of a Tyler trigger expander.
The gun was purchased new in Bordeaux (France) by its previous owner, from Ets. Hussenet & Laurent, who were responsible for importing it.

My question is as follows: Did Smith & Wesson produce models with white inserts?
If not, what do you think of this case? Do you know of any others?

Thank you for your attention, and especially to those who have answers to give me.

Best regards,

 

[squidsix]

Is it by any chance round butt?

 

[French Grumpy Bear]

Is it by any chance round butt?

No, it's a classic square butt with Target stock.

 

[glenwolde]

I've seen all sorts of colors, but they were all replacements or added to a solid blade. You can usually spot the added ones as the dovetail is not cut quite right. But replacements still look factory.

 

[French Grumpy Bear]

I've seen all sorts of colors, but they were all replacements or added to a solid blade. You can usually spot the added ones as the dovetail is not cut quite right. But replacements still look factory.

I did indeed think of the gunsmith replacing the insert at the customer's request (because if it's a replacement, it's perfectly done and corresponds to a professional job), but the customer in question was a collector who had 2 Model 14s (one of which he shot almost exclusively with) and a Model 19 he hardly ever used (acquired for collecting). I'd be surprised if, as a collector, he'd have asked his gunsmith for such a modification, especially if he didn't want to use the gun... The Model 14s have not been modified.

 

[murphydog]

Cool gun. I imagine the factory would do a request like this for the right price but it would be highly unusual. The only non-red insert I’ve ever seen was yellow in a few military contract model 19s.

 

[French Grumpy Bear]

Cool gun. I imagine the factory would do a request like this for the right price but it would be highly unusual. The only non-red insert I’ve ever seen was yellow in a few military contract model 19s.

This would be a much more attractive option than replacement by the importing gunsmith. I think that only an Historical Letter could definitively answer the question... but its price makes me feel a little cold.
However, the addition of a Tyler trigger expander suggests that the buyer would have wanted a Model 19 "Triple Target". If he was the one who ordered the white insert, it's very likely that he would also have asked for (and received) a Target trigger...
In any case, I gather from the initial feedback that this is not a common Smith option... and the hypothesis of a later modification is probably the most likely.

 

[Marshal Tom]

Many including me had inserts added to the front sights on guns that didn't have them from the factory. I had an early model 66 with the stainless front sight as my first police gun. I had an orange insert installed because the front sight was so hard to see.

 

[French Grumpy Bear]

Thank you for your first answers.

I understand that the presence of a white insert is not in itself exceptional, but that it is not a typical option offered by Smith & Wesson.
It's possible that Smith & Wesson produced guns with this type of white insert to order, but there are no known cases.
Most likely, the insert was either added by a gunsmith to a front sight without an original insert, or the original red insert was replaced by a white one.
Nevertheless, the reputable gunsmith who sold it to me - he held it as part of an estate - confirmed that it was an original Smith insert, but was unable to document this further.
At this stage, only an HL could confirm the gun's factory configuration.

Thanks again for your feedback.
I'm always interested in hearing from you.

Below is the revolver in its entirety (1978 Model 19-3 with a 4" barrel):

 

[Retired W4]

My 44 Magnum from June 18, 1956 has a white insert that looks factory. The letter says there was nothing on the invoice about it so Roy thought it was added later.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Even if you could order a white insert, why would you want that color? The insert is supposed to improve front sight visibility, but unless you're aiming at overly dark targets, it seems it would decrease visibility, not improve it.

The insert isn't hard to make look factory, just takes patience and some careful trimming. You can mask off one side of the slot, and melt red zip-tie plastic to fill the slot snugly. Then remove the masking and carefully shave the sides of the new insert to flatten them to the sides of the blade. It will fit tight since it is poured or dripped into place.

 

[BAM-BAM]

They use to sell kits to add or change inserts..... I've seen red, orange and yellow over the past 40 years.

 

[French Grumpy Bear]

Even if you could order a white insert, why would you want that color? The insert is supposed to improve front sight visibility, but unless you're aiming at overly dark targets, it seems it would decrease visibility, not improve it.

The insert isn't hard to make look factory, just takes patience and some careful trimming. You can mask off one side of the slot, and melt red zip-tie plastic to fill the slot snugly. Then remove the masking and carefully shave the sides of the new insert to flatten them to the sides of the blade. It will fit tight since it is poured or dripped into place.

You are right about the contrast for professional use (M&P). But the original owner was a sports shooter. Therefore, the target center being black, a white insert can make sense.

Concerning the installation or subsequent replacement of the insert I agree with you, this is also the most probable hypothesis.

 

[bigmoose]

Here’s a wild guess… any chance that “white insert” is ivory? Ivory was always popular as a front sight bead due to its ‘glow’ in certain light conditions. I could see someone asking SW to put in ivory instead of red, and the pistolsmith at the factory bench said to himself “sure, what the heck, let’s spice up this revolver headed to France.”

 

[bigmoose]

Is that the original box pictured? Is there an end label on it?

 

[French Grumpy Bear]

Is that the original box pictured? Is there an end label on it?

Yes, it is the original box and it still has its end label (I also have all the original papers: legal import certificate, proofing, etc.).

Unfortunately I am not at home this week and cannot verify the information mentioned.

What information do you think you can find there?

 

[French Grumpy Bear]

Here’s a wild guess… any chance that “white insert” is ivory? Ivory was always popular as a front sight bead due to its ‘glow’ in certain light conditions. I could see someone asking SW to put in ivory instead of red, and the pistolsmith at the factory bench said to himself “sure, what the heck, let’s spice up this revolver headed to France.”

An attractive hypothesis, especially since I wondered what material was used for the insert. It doesn't look like plastic and has shades of yellow and red...
As I have just bought it I have not yet had the opportunity to use it and appreciate the light effects on the insert.
If it were ivory it would be a superb surprise.
I'll have to check that out next week. We can dream ! ;-)

 

[Hondo44]

Coincidentally another white sight insert on a S&W was posted 2 days ago that looks original. Go to the 1896 to 1961 forum section and look for:
4” Pre-24 - Waco Auction

 

[glenwolde]

They use to sell kits to add or change inserts..... I've seen red, orange and yellow over the past 40 years.

No longer available but still listed.

BROWNELLS FRONT SIGHT INSERT KIT

 

[Drm50]

The dovetails wouldn’t give away a good job done with the epoxy like sight mixture that is cast into dove tail. The original inserts have pins that go in hole under dovetail. Any insert made to “slide in” will not have these. I have made them from brass and plastics to be fit this way.