A hard-to-find as-issued relic of WWII..

[PALADIN85020]

(Click for larger image)

As many of you know, finding an older U.S military firearm in original condition is really hard in these days. Most have switched-out parts either through arsenal upgrading or by individual altering. It's rare to find one that is just as issued originally.

This Standard Products M1 carbine walked in through the door at a gun show many years ago, and when I gave it a detailed inspection it turned out that most of the parts were original to that manufacturer, including the magazine. Those that could not be determined as original to Standard Products still may be correct inasmuch as there were a lot of interchangeable parts used by the manufacturers of the carbine that were provided by other firms in the heat of fast manufacture. As far as I can determine, this specimen is just as it probably left the factory in early 1944.

It's notable that it escaped upgrades such as a bayonet lug and the later adjustable rear sight, and modifications to the magazine release and safety.

It disturbs me to see movies set in the WWII period that have carbines equipped with modifications that came along later in time. Few movies are authentic in that regard - but I'm a stickler for authenticity.

At any rate, here's an apparently original specimen just as it was first issued, and it's rare to find one so nicely preserved.

As a side note, most of the employees of Standard Products at that time were women - the men in Port Clinton, Ohio had mostly gone to war. A good number of them perished in the Bataan death march at the hands of the Japanese.

I thought you might enjoy a look at one that appears just the way it was issued during the war. Detailed information on it can be found in my book 101 Classic Firearms.

John

 

[cololab]

Always nice to see an item that exists as originally manufactured.

 

[LVSteve]

Finding WWII stuff with original parts is hard, but finding one that hasn't been attacked with sandpaper, tung oil, or polyurethane varnish is harder still.

 

[Krogen]

Often noted restoring a worn, but original car: "It's only original once." Once restored, there's no going back.

It's always a thrill for me to see a dated item in its original state, especially when it's in such good condition. Thanks for posting.

 

[VaTom]

Very nice M1 carbine. When I was searching for a 1911A1 about 15 years ago I wanted an all original. Was fortunate to find a 1943 Ithaca in excellent condition. About ten years ago I was able to get a K-Bar USN MkII in original condition at an auction.

 

[lihpster]

It disturbs me to see movies set in the WWII period that have carbines equipped with modifications that came along later in time. Few movies are authentic in that regard - but I'm a stickler for authenticity.

Eh, anymore I'm just happy if they don't have Spanish Mausers. At least they got the model of the gun somewhat correct.

 

[Glynn863]

Over 40 years ago I inherited an Underwood M-1 carbine from my step-grandfather. He had bought it through the NRA in the early 1960s. It is an early Underwood (1.398M S/N - 3-43 barrel date) that went through a depot update to add the bayonet lug and adjustable rear sight, but everything else is still original, such as the high wood stock (marked M-U), 2-rivet handguard (marked P-U), pushbutton safety, and blued flat bolt. All the small parts have "U" stamps.

 

[djohns6]

I just sold an M1 Garand that had all " Correct " parts . Original as issued Garands and Carbines exist obviously but are rare .

 

[DWalt]

Some of the Carbine contractors were mainly assembly operations using a variety of parts from other sources. Quality Hardware was one. I think the only components actually made by them were receivers and a few minor components and most of theirs used barrels made by Inland. About 15 years ago a friend found an original Saginaw which had avoided the postwar updates at an estate sale and bought it for around $300. I offered him $1000 but he wouldn't sell. Probably a duffel bag bring back from WWII. When I was just a little kid, one of my father's friends brought his Carbine home from the war that way. He let me shoot it a few times, but I remember little about its details. I am fairly sure it had no bayonet attachment.

I once knew a guy who had an original Garand, a very early one with the gas trap. I am sure it had to have been original. I have never seen another, those are probably extremely rare today.

 

[robvious]

The all original and unmolested are truly rare and should be cherished... mine went from a shooter to a safe queen when I was wise enough to do the research...

 

[diyj98]

I've known people too spend a lot of time and money putting Garands and M1 carbines back to "original" condition switching wood and parts around.

 

[LVSteve]

I've know people too spend a lot of time and money putting Garands and M1 carbines back to "original" condition switching wood and parts around.

The joke is that both designs were built to have swappable parts. So, if the army saw fit to rebuild them with whatever was at hand, at the end of that process they are still 'correct'.

 

[djohns6]

The joke is that both designs were built to have swappable parts. So, if the army saw fit to rebuild them with whatever was at hand, at the end of that process they are still 'correct'.

" Correct " as in the date codes , lot numbers , internal parts , sights , barrel . etc. are all correct for the serial number on the receiver . A WWII era receiver with a 1952 dated barrel is not " Correct " .

 

[Buick]

When did the adjustable rear sight start? I have a Saginaw SG which has an unstaked adjustable sight, but all other features are early original. It's a minty gun and I've always been curious as to it's originality.

 

[AJ]

(Click for larger image)

As many of you know, finding an older U.S military firearm in original condition is really hard in these days. Most have switched-out parts either through arsenal upgrading or by individual altering. It's rare to find one that is just as issued originally.

This Standard Products M1 carbine walked in through the door at a gun show many years ago, and when I gave it a detailed inspection it turned out that most of the parts were original to that manufacturer, including the magazine. Those that could not be determined as original to Standard Products still may be correct inasmuch as there were a lot of interchangeable parts used by the manufacturers of the carbine that were provided by other firms in the heat of fast manufacture. As far as I can determine, this specimen is just as it probably left the factory in early 1944.

It's notable that it escaped upgrades such as a bayonet lug and the later adjustable rear sight, and modifications to the magazine release and safety.

It disturbs me to see movies set in the WWII period that have carbines equipped with modifications that came along later in time. Few movies are authentic in that regard - but I'm a stickler for authenticity.

At any rate, here's an apparently original specimen just as it was first issued, and it's rare to find one so nicely preserved.

As a side note, most of the employees of Standard Products at that time were women - the men in Port Clinton, Ohio had mostly gone to war. A good number of them perished in the Bataan death march at the hands of the Japanese.

I thought you might enjoy a look at one that appears just the way it was issued during the war. Detailed information on it can be found in my book 101 Classic Firearms.

John

Need close ups of the barrel from the handguard forward side and top. Please.

 

[Faulkner]

When did the adjustable rear sight start? I have a Saginaw SG which has an unstaked adjustable sight, but all other features are early original. It's a minty gun and I've always been curious as to it's originality.

It depends on whether it is a milled adjustable rear sight or a stamped adjustable rear sight. The milled version was implemented first with the stamped version following a few months later, probably in late 1944. According to my reference book S'G' never issued adjustable sights. Saginaw Gear only used a few milled rear sights in a few very late production carbines and should be marked "PI".

I've been wheeling and dealing in USGI carbines since the mid 1990's and I have three what I strongly believe to be original as manufactured.

 

[LVSteve]

" Correct " as in the date codes , lot numbers , internal parts , sights , barrel . etc. are all correct for the serial number on the receiver . A WWII era receiver with a 1952 dated barrel is not " Correct " .

Is it as it came out of the factory, no. Is it as the military chose to rebuild it while in service, yes. That to me is 'correct' because it is part of the military history of the weapon. I know it is not a popular view, but rebuilds by the military do not make it 'wrong' IMHO. It is an opinion with which quite a few have chosen to differ.

 

[Buick]

It depends on whether it is a milled adjustable rear sight or a stamped adjustable rear sight. The milled version was implemented first with the stamped version following a few months later, probably in late 1944. According to my reference book S'G' never issued adjustable sights. Saginaw Gear only used a few milled rear sights in a few very late production carbines and should be marked "PI".

I've been wheeling and dealing in USGI carbines since the mid 1990's and I have three what I strongly believe to be original as manufactured.

Very intriguing; iirc it is a PI stamped sight. I will put up some pics when I get back to town later this week.

 

[DWalt]

The Army, Marines, etc. were not interested even slightly in keeping guns in as-originally-shipped condition. When a batch of military guns went in for depot rebuild, they were normally completely disassembled into bins of receivers, barrels, bolts, etc. and were inspected. If they passed, the parts may (or may not) have been re-used. If not, they would be replaced with new components. In the case of Carbines, a very high percentage of them went through an upgrade program and new rear sights, bayonet studs, safeties, etc were added during the late 1940s. I have understood that just about all old wood was replaced with new. In the case of the postwar Carbines, the rebuilt guns were "canned" for Arsenal storage. Actually large metal cans holding, as I remember, 20 carbines each. Then they would, sooner or later, have been re-issued to the field, and many of those carbines went to Korea and later Vietnam. One of the largest Carbine rebuild depots was at the Army's San Antonio Arsenal, just south of downtown San Antonio. The Arsenal buildings are still there today but are the HQ of the H-E-B supermarket chain.

When I was at the USAF Gunsmith Shop at Lackland AFB we went through essentially the same process for around 15K worn-out M16A2s the Air Force inherited from the USMC.

 

[djohns6]

Is it as it came out of the factory, no. Is it as the military chose to rebuild it while in service, yes. That to me is 'correct' because it is part of the militaryhistory of the weapon. I know it is not a popular view, but rebuilds by the military do not make it 'wrong' IMHO. It is an opinion with which quite a few have chosen to differ.

To a Garand collector there is a big difference in "correct" , and "original" . " Wrong " would be a part that is not correct for that serial number on the receiver .