Glad no one was hurt. The gun sounds like a great candidate for a Smolt conversion!
UPDATE; POST 62 MODEL 67 BARREL DEPARTED ON 3RD SHOT
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I'm inclined to go with the over-torqued barrel theory. That inclination comes from more than a few years tending to bits and pieces on race cars, where I learned first comes stress raisers, then comes a crack, and then comes two pieces which used to be one.
A regimen of routine crack testing gave me the opportunity to throw stuff away while it was still in one piece. That'd work just as well with a gun, but such failures are so few and far between that such preventive measures would seem to be overkill.
Ralph Tremaine
A regimen of routine crack testing gave me the opportunity to throw stuff away while it was still in one piece. That'd work just as well with a gun, but such failures are so few and far between that such preventive measures would seem to be overkill.
Ralph Tremaine
Doug M.
Member
Whatever the problem was that created this situation, it is ... odd, and done. If it were mine, and S&W returns it (they might be hesitant), I would take it to (member and gunsmith) BMCM for the replacement. An original barrel might take a while to find (not my knowledge set, so I could be very wrong). As you are in Alabama, I would DRIVE it to him rather than deal with the pain the shipping would be.
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First, S&W has no right to keep your property if you want it back. They may want a signed waiver or something, but at the end of the day, S&W cannot keep your property. Clearly, assuming the ammo was not the problem (and I do not think it was), it was most likely an over-torqued barrel. My guess - they will offer you a Model 66 from current production. Do not be surprised if they ask you to pay a small amount of "difference" between the value of the Model 67 of that era (without defect) and their cost on the current Model 66. If they offer a "trade-up," feel free to negotiate on a different model, if they make something else you like.
What you describe sounds like a textbook fatigue failure in a thread.
I'm going to guess a fatigue crack started in the last thread root by the barrel and propagated until the intact remainder could no longer hold the loading imparted by the arriving bullet.
That stress concentration could be caused by either too sharp a corner in the root of the thread or over torqueing to align the sights if the barrel shoulder wasn't cut deep enough.
Either way, it seems to be machining error and a warranty issue Smith should stand behind.
I too will vote for some type of injury to the barrel. over torque stress or the barrel being struck on something
A one piece K frame barrel has .540 threads and that is the major dia. I have never measured the minor dia, but it is probably not even .510. Subtract .357 for the groove dia and you have .153 and divide that by 2 and you find the barrel shank at the frame is only about .0765 thick. One of the K frame's problems has always been its thin barrel shank.
Add that to a batch of early stainless that may not have had the best tensile strength, a good bit of over torque or the barrel being whacked in some manner and I can see how a stress crack could occur and progress to the point of failure.
Even some kind of vibration harmonics between frame and barrel with certain loads could have occurred
There is absolutely no reason to believe that type of barrel failure would cause damage to the frame threads
A search for S&W 67 barrel on Ebay brought up a bunch of them
A one piece K frame barrel has .540 threads and that is the major dia. I have never measured the minor dia, but it is probably not even .510. Subtract .357 for the groove dia and you have .153 and divide that by 2 and you find the barrel shank at the frame is only about .0765 thick. One of the K frame's problems has always been its thin barrel shank.
Add that to a batch of early stainless that may not have had the best tensile strength, a good bit of over torque or the barrel being whacked in some manner and I can see how a stress crack could occur and progress to the point of failure.
Even some kind of vibration harmonics between frame and barrel with certain loads could have occurred
There is absolutely no reason to believe that type of barrel failure would cause damage to the frame threads
A search for S&W 67 barrel on Ebay brought up a bunch of them
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Photog
Member
I agree with you 110%, but if they refuse, then what? Hire a lawyer at several hundred and hour to get your gun back? Fighting a large corporation to retrieve something that is worth 1K or so at most, will probably cost you 10x that at least. I am NOT saying they are right, but I have had personal experience with this sort of thing. Many years ago I was in a Trap Shooting League. One of the shooters had an single shot 12ga trap gun manufactured by a very famous and popular manufacturer. The gun let go just ahead of the chamber. Fortunately the shooter had only minor injuries. A fellow shooter happened to work at a laboratory where they did a lot of metallurgey(sp?) work. He tested it for the shooter and said it was the equivalent of "high grade pot metal". The company wanted him to send it in, but he was pretty sure he would never get it back. Of course guy who did the test would not agree to testify if it went to court since he did it on his own and the lab might have some issues with him testifying. In the end, he sold the parts that were salvagable and bought a new Kreighoff. Like I said, I do not in any way agree with a company refusing to return a legally owned firearm, but it happens.
Jim Watson
Member
Cornball columnist Lew Grizzard wrote of stuffing a pistol under his butt. Something about the car seat and motion of the vehicle touched it off, wounding him in the rear. He said the company was very concerned and sympathetic, until they got him to send it in for examination, whereupon it became "what gun?"
My bet is they are not going to return it for liability reasons. If someone sticks a new barrel on it and it blows up and injures someone they can be partially liable. They will most like offer to replace it with an equivalent current model or a monetary coupon towards current products. That’s what they did when I sent in my cracked frame early model 642. I now have a new 442 (my choice over a 642 for the subdued finish). I’m happy.
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SGT ROCK 11B
Member
The Police Department I was on would not buy stainless steel revolvers. Eventually stainless steel was approved for privately purchase revolvers especially since a Lieutenant wanted a Model 66 to carry on duty.
They can scream liability reasons all they want. They have no legal right to keep some ones property. I also doubt they would put up much of a legal battle because their lawyers are well aware of that fact. Unless you sign some kind of document giving them such a right they can't just claim they have such a right. They could simply ask you to sign a liability release.
If I go buy a brand new gun, remove the barrel and stick another one on and it comes off you can bet you biffy they would deny liability
If I go buy a brand new gun, remove the barrel and stick another one on and it comes off you can bet you biffy they would deny liability
Model 67 Barrel Departed on 3rd Shot
I will update when he hears from S&W about what they will or will not do. If her receives it back unrepaired there are plenty og Model 67 pinned barrels on Ebay. It appears that over torqued has been a problem for some time. I hope I never encounter it again.
We shall see. Thanks for all your replies.
I will update when he hears from S&W about what they will or will not do. If her receives it back unrepaired there are plenty og Model 67 pinned barrels on Ebay. It appears that over torqued has been a problem for some time. I hope I never encounter it again.
We shall see. Thanks for all your replies.
Glad nobody was hurt.
It should be an easy fix: just replace the barrel.
There was a similar problem that happened with early batches of the then-new Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum back in the early 80s.
The barrel would sometimes just cleanly shear off right at the point where the barrel shoulder met the frame.
It later became a Ruger folk lore story.
Here’s the account I heard:
“Basically, it was a combination of an odd set of circumstances. Barrels are lubed prior to being screwed into a frame. Apparently, a FEW barrels were pre-lubed, and left in the rack while the company was on an extended shut down for a couple weeks. During that time, the lube, exposed to air, dried & changed properties enough to where it created a "stress point" once assembled & torqued into place.
It took the folks at Ruger 3-4 years to discover the cause.”
It should be an easy fix: just replace the barrel.
There was a similar problem that happened with early batches of the then-new Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum back in the early 80s.
The barrel would sometimes just cleanly shear off right at the point where the barrel shoulder met the frame.
It later became a Ruger folk lore story.
Here’s the account I heard:
“Basically, it was a combination of an odd set of circumstances. Barrels are lubed prior to being screwed into a frame. Apparently, a FEW barrels were pre-lubed, and left in the rack while the company was on an extended shut down for a couple weeks. During that time, the lube, exposed to air, dried & changed properties enough to where it created a "stress point" once assembled & torqued into place.
It took the folks at Ruger 3-4 years to discover the cause.”
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shil
Member
Gad, this is a new one for me. Until now, I've never heard of such a thing. Over torquing and creating a stress point is certainly plausible. I would think the steel used for a barrel should be more ductile than that. How does a manufacturer ensure that the steel from whatever supplier meets specifications? I presume there are specifications?
Actually barrel steel is on the soft and ductile side. But On K frame 357s the amount in the barrel shank is pretty thin. Look at my math in post 26.
In fact an over torqued barrel will often have a tight spot in the bore at the frame junction from this. I can be detected by driving a soft lead ball down the barrel from the muzzle. Once started it will push along until it hits that spot and more force will be required to make it pass though.
A better method is to use pin gauges. Find the largest one that will enter the muzzle, usually about .006 or so under caliber depending on the height of the rifling and it should slide though. But, it will hang up if the bore is choked. On a revolver that times correctly it should slide right into each chamber. If it locks up out of time it will hang up on cylinder face.
Big bore N frames can have choke at the frame too. It doesn't take a whole lot of torque for the barrel to stay put with or without the pin. But, as &W uses 36 to the inch threads it don't take very much rotation to create a lot of tension. Think of threads as a ramp or a wedge. It takes less power to push something up a long slow ramp, than a short steep one. Or a real thin shallow wedge drives way easier than a steep one. So a 36 to the inch thread creates a lot more tension at 80 ftlb than a 13 to one. A 9/16 grade 8 bolt is torqued at 115ftlb, it has 12 per inch. If you over torque it very much you will exceed its elastic limit and either deform it or break it. A K frame barrel is the same 9/16 OD but has 36 to the inch so the same 115 of torque would create 3 times as much tension and the grade 8 bolt doesn't have a .357 hole in the center. So, it doesn't take a whole lot of over torquing to deform or crack it.
My frame wrench has about a 12" handle. I could easily over torque a barrel. But the length is great for control to get the barrel timed just right to the frame. I have never checked the actual torque, but I have a fair idea of ideal from feeling how much it takes to break one loose. I could tack an old 3/8 drive socket to it and use my 3/8 torque wrench when I am taking off barrels just to see. But after a life time of wrenching I developed a pretty well calibrated arm. LOL
In fact an over torqued barrel will often have a tight spot in the bore at the frame junction from this. I can be detected by driving a soft lead ball down the barrel from the muzzle. Once started it will push along until it hits that spot and more force will be required to make it pass though.
A better method is to use pin gauges. Find the largest one that will enter the muzzle, usually about .006 or so under caliber depending on the height of the rifling and it should slide though. But, it will hang up if the bore is choked. On a revolver that times correctly it should slide right into each chamber. If it locks up out of time it will hang up on cylinder face.
Big bore N frames can have choke at the frame too. It doesn't take a whole lot of torque for the barrel to stay put with or without the pin. But, as &W uses 36 to the inch threads it don't take very much rotation to create a lot of tension. Think of threads as a ramp or a wedge. It takes less power to push something up a long slow ramp, than a short steep one. Or a real thin shallow wedge drives way easier than a steep one. So a 36 to the inch thread creates a lot more tension at 80 ftlb than a 13 to one. A 9/16 grade 8 bolt is torqued at 115ftlb, it has 12 per inch. If you over torque it very much you will exceed its elastic limit and either deform it or break it. A K frame barrel is the same 9/16 OD but has 36 to the inch so the same 115 of torque would create 3 times as much tension and the grade 8 bolt doesn't have a .357 hole in the center. So, it doesn't take a whole lot of over torquing to deform or crack it.
My frame wrench has about a 12" handle. I could easily over torque a barrel. But the length is great for control to get the barrel timed just right to the frame. I have never checked the actual torque, but I have a fair idea of ideal from feeling how much it takes to break one loose. I could tack an old 3/8 drive socket to it and use my 3/8 torque wrench when I am taking off barrels just to see. But after a life time of wrenching I developed a pretty well calibrated arm. LOL
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PS watch this video and you will get an idea how much torque it takes at between 3:45 and 4:15
The whole video is an interesting look at what goes on building them
SORRY LINK ADDED
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3HDLkB5l8[/ame]
Cambering the chambers at 2:10
Installing a barrel 3:40-4:10
The jig at 4:20 4:20 to start trimming the barrel gap to the cylinder
The tool at 4:30 to cut the ratchet teeth
Cutting the forcing cone at 5:10
Checking the timing at 5:30
The whole video is an interesting look at what goes on building them
SORRY LINK ADDED
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3HDLkB5l8[/ame]
Cambering the chambers at 2:10
Installing a barrel 3:40-4:10
The jig at 4:20 4:20 to start trimming the barrel gap to the cylinder
The tool at 4:30 to cut the ratchet teeth
Cutting the forcing cone at 5:10
Checking the timing at 5:30
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Cotis
Member
Video link not here. Please post as I am interested!...
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Is there a link?
Sorry
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3HDLkB5l8[/ame]
