I have a S&W model 19, nickel, 2 1/2" manufactured around 1980. I was shooting it last week. I shot a box of Remington 158 grain 38 plus P, then I was shooting a small box of Remington 110 grain magnums. On the third cylinder the gun completely locked up. Trigger wouldn't move and I was unable to open the cylinder. Gun was pretty hot to the touch as I was firing rapid fire thru each cylinder with no break other than to reload. After about a minute I was able to open the cylinder and dump the spent shell casings. I then went thru a small box of Speer short barrel 135 grain magn ums and had no issues. Some years back also shooting either Remington or Winchester 110 grain magnums I had the same thing happen. Rapid firing and gun got very hot and locked up. I havent had any problems over the years shooting 38 +P. Anybody have an idea whats going on? I would like to put this 19 back in my carry rotation but just now I cant trust it. Thanks!
Vintage S&W model 19 locks up
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I would think it would take many more full power .357 rounds, even through an older K frame, to overheat it to the point of lockup. If you haven’t already, would check the tightness of the extractor rod and for crud under the extractor and elsewhere as the culprits for the malfunction.
I will simply reiterate but with great vigor. Easily the most common cause for what you describe is the ejector rod unscrewing itself, and it has a reverse thread.
And if you have never experienced schmaltz under the ejector star and HOW unbelievably bad it makes a revolver feel, it might shock you the first time you experience it and then remedy it.
It truly feels like the revolver is absolutely wrecked until you have cleared the schmaltz, and upon doing so it will feel perfect once again.
And if you have never experienced schmaltz under the ejector star and HOW unbelievably bad it makes a revolver feel, it might shock you the first time you experience it and then remedy it.
It truly feels like the revolver is absolutely wrecked until you have cleared the schmaltz, and upon doing so it will feel perfect once again.
I agree with the above posts, probably an extractor area problem. I'd think that if heat was the issue, the gun would be warm enough that you couldn't hold it.
Doug M.
Member
It is possible that if the revolver is at minimum dimensions, it could heat up enough to bind. Not super likely, but possible. I had an M649 years ago that did that.
Most probably a backed out ejector rod. Clean the threads on it, (both male and female), and tighten it up.
You might also check the b/c gap. If it is very tight enough heat expansion and crud could do that. I have seen it happen (once).
I agree that loosened extractor rods and fouled stars or barrel faces are common causes for this, but per the OP this happened under heavy fire including magnums, and then with a minute to cool off ceased to be an issue, and immediately thereafter was not an issue with .38s, no cleaning or correction administered.
If it were the usual culprits, wouldn't the issue have persisted?
Based on description, I think Doug M. is correct and minimum (or less) tolerance(s) are stacking under thermal expansion from magnums and rate of fire. Otherwise it wouldn't self correct with a cool down.
If it were the usual culprits, wouldn't the issue have persisted?
Based on description, I think Doug M. is correct and minimum (or less) tolerance(s) are stacking under thermal expansion from magnums and rate of fire. Otherwise it wouldn't self correct with a cool down.
Case set back ?
Primer flow back ?
Primer flow back ?
panamajack310
Member
Check your forcing come and make sure it is not cracked. This will also lock up the revolver. K frames are meant to shot a steady diet of .38 special. Only use a limited number of .357 mag rounds for practice. The gun was designed to shoot .38 special for practice and .357 for carry and duty use.
I checked the forcing cone and its ok. I also had cleaned it after I got home from the range. It was dirty from normal shooting but not bad. I also had checked the ejector rod and cleaned behind the star and it had normal dirt and grime. Now its clean of course. I dont know if there was any bullet setback at the range. It was low light inside the range and when I was able to open the cylinder I just dumped out what ever was in there. I dont shoot 125 grain ammo as I read its hard on these revolvers. The 110 grains have a big flash and are loud but the recoil isnt much. The Speer short barrels seem milder. The Remington 158 grain +P’s were smokey but recoil was also much less than the 110 magnums. Im going to bring it by a gun shop I frequent and have them take a look. Like I had posted this happened only once before some years back and also I was shooting 110 grains. Since i fired it quite a few times after this, including earlier this year on a HR 218 qualification with 38’s and it functioned properly I just thought is it possible that 110 grains fired rapidly would heat the gun to a point it locked up? Holding it and shooting didnt hurt my hand just when i tried to open the cylinder it was very hot. Normal thing.
The answer is yes, it is possible, and thus far thermal expansion is the best proposed explanation for your experience.
Someone with proper tools and knowledge of S&W revolvers and their correct specs needs to assess barrel-cylinder gap, head space (sometimes called rear gauge) and end shake (sometimes called end play) -- to start.
If you still have them, have a look at the spent cases from the lock-up incidents and see if there are any bulges or pierced primers, just in case.
Also, since you mentioned potentially issue-prone ammo in K-frames, have a look at this article on the creation of the L-frame -- it has a lot of good info on the subject: The Smith & Wesson L-Frame Story – RevolverGuy.Com
Since it only happened after rapid firing three cylinders full of full power 357 Magnum loads, I'd put my money on this Model 19 as having the bare minimum of clearance with regards to the cylinder. It could be 0,001" or maybe less end shake. It could also be bare minimum headspacing (distance from the rear of the cylinder to the frame recoil shield). It might be too small of a barrel-cylinder gap, but that would be unusual for a S&W as they tend to run on the wide side of the gap range. Then again, if this Model 19 had a barrel swap to make it a 2 1/2 inch Model 19, whoever did the swap may not have gotten the gap correct. It could be a combination of any of the aforementioned potential issues.
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Hair Trigger
US Veteran
Any lightweight bullet 125 grains or less is hard on these revolvers in a magnum load. My guess is the heat from the flash overheated the forcing cone and cylinder, and expansion caused the lockup.
Running a box of 110's rapidly through that K frame and you're begging for a forcing cone crack. 110 and 125 grain bullets are shorter than 158 grain, enough that the powder is still burning as the bullet leaves the cylinder and hasn't yet fully engaged the forcing cone. This is why you get such a flash. The flash also causes more flame cutting under the top strap just above the B/C gap than 158 grain bullets. These lighter weight bullets accelerate more quickly and the heat and shock of the bullet entering the forcing cone is what contributes to the cracking issues. The undercut bottom of the cone can't dissipate the heat as quickly as the remainder of the cone can and it will develop a hot spot. A few rounds here and there don't do that much, but letting the gun heat to the point you can't keep your hand on the barrel or cylinder, you need to let it cool. The snubby is worse than longer barrels because it heats up faster as there is less steel to absorb the heat.
I think your right. Both times this occurred when I was shooting quickly with light magnum loads. When the gun cooled enough to open the cylinder I shot a box of Speer Short Barrel 135 grains magnums and had no issues. Earlier this year I did a HR 218 revolver qualification using 38 caliber 158 grains and shooting quickly and timed with no issues. I have read about the problems with 125 grain magnums but I think now that although the 110 grains have less power they still can have the same issues. Im going to try shooting quickly again but with just 158 grain +P’s and also the Speer short Barrel 357. Hope it goes well. The Gold Dots are a good load in magnums or 38 +P’s.
Jim Watson
Member
Interesting, standard brand 110 gr .357s are a relatively light load, lower velocity than the corresponding 125 gr. A friend's Taurus was brilliantly accurate with 110 gr WWB, shooting X ring size groups at 50 yards Ransom Rest.
Like mine did.......It locked up too.....Bottom of FC split and locked the cyl.. This happened in 1986. I was shooting 150 gr cast lead bullets pushed by #2400.
Attachments
I recently chased down a similar problem in a Ruger Security Six. All the usual suspects listed here did not solve the issue. It wasn't until I shot it enough in one session with some rather sooty Bullseye loads that I noticed scrape/rub marks in the soot on the front of the cylinder. Smoothing the barrel face and increasing the BC gap from .004" to .006" cured the problem.
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
I don't know if I've ever shot 110 grain magnum loads in any K frame I ever had, but many years ago when I worked for DOC and shot PPC, the popular carry load for a M19/66 was the 125 grain JHP. When comparing it to a 158 grain load, it actually had more energy at 15 yards than the 158, because it had greater velocity. However, it lost energy faster past 20 yards than 158 due to less inertia from lower mass. It wasn't really pertinent to PPC or the job, but for personal use. For PPC we used 110 grain .38Spl. wadcutters, and carried .38Spl. 158 grain JFP duty loads in the M65's we carried on escort details.
