Suggestions on 44 special please....

[toad67]

Finally ran out of factory 44spl ammo, so it is time to roll some of my own. After doing some reading, quite a few people mention that Titegroup is a great powder for the 44spl. Pet Loads mentions that Titegroup, behind a 200 grain Oregon Trail RNFP is one great load. I happen to have both and have loaded between 4.5-5.5 grains and the accuracy is terrible.
I'd like to have a plinking load to shoot out of a 4" model 69, but have also shot them out of my 629, which is a really good shooter, but the best I can get at 10 yards is about 3".
The Hodgdon site says that CFE Pistol, Clays and HP-38 are also a usable powder and I have all of those on hand.
I'm just wondering, that since the grouping was so bad, it might be the bullet and not necessarily the powder, thoughts?

 

[Capt. F.]

Sounds to me like a bullet diameter problem to me since both guns aren't giving you optimum performance.

 

[zeke]

Favorite 44 spl load is 200 lrnfp over 6.4 gns Hp-38 in 44 special cases.

This gets bout 800 fps from M696.

Have never tried this in a 44 mag, and would be inclined to up the charge a little using 44 mag brass if loading for a 44 mag.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I'm down to one Uberti 1873 carbine in 44 Special. The 6.4 grain HP-38/WW231 load works well in revolvers and long guns. 200/204 RNFP bullets either Coated or Lubed in .430-.431", Winchester brass & Win. WLP primer. In the carbine I still get 2"@100 yards when my eyes are up to it.

Ivan

 

[Skeet 028]

I tried Tight Group and it didn't live up to it's name at all. switched to 231 with the same 200 gr RNFP bullet. and it shot really well out of the Ruger Flat Top 44 special. That TG load didn't look to have much powder in it...I just kinda blamed it on the low loading density...the 44 Is a kind of big fat happy case. I would have to check on the loads of powders...6.6 -6.7 231??

While walking past the ammo cabinet a few minutes ago I checked that 231 load..it was not 6.6 or 6.7 gr. the bullet was a cast RNFP of 210 +- with 5.7 gr 231....and it's my last box...Recollections...are not always correct

 

[BigMuddy]

I never got the 200's to shoot well until I loaded TG with 6.0 grains. That did pretty good but it was in a 44 Special gun.

The absolute best light load I have used in 44 magnums:

240 grain SWC "deep seated" over 5.5 grains of 231/HP38 with standard primer in magnum brass. Deep seat the bullet to crimp just over the driving band on the SWC. Any of the commercial cast bullets have worked. Can't explain why, but in several different 44 Magnum revolvers the accuracy of this load is uncanny. Does 850 fps in my 4" M29.

Cartridges look a bit odd but they sure shoot!

Dan

 

[zeke]

Another thought. 200 lrnfp's are short, and the jump from 44 special brass case mouth to 44 mag cylinder throat may not be conducive to accuracy.

 

[CBH405]

At such modest velocities, make sure bullets are on the soft side and sized to correctly.

 

[rockquarry]

Another thought. 200 lrnfp's are short, and the jump from 44 special brass case mouth to 44 mag cylinder throat may not be conducive to accuracy.

I've seen very good accuracy results with .44 Special loads in both Model 24-3s and 29s using the SAECO 200 grain plain base flat point design. I've tried Unique, HS-6, Herco, 231, and maybe another powder or two. I did have the mould opened up to cast a .432" bullet, the only diameter I use in all .44 caliber revolvers.

My loads are not hot ones, about standard pressure for .44 Special loads.

 

[richrd]

I'm running 7 gr 231 / hp38 with a 240 keith from Missouri Bullet.

out of a 4 inch smith it's good plinker, but not very good at 100 yds.

 

[WR Moore]

I tend to agree with those who think the issue might be the bullet. I've never found a bad grouping load using the Kieth/Lyman 429421 bullet.

However, the worst grouping ammo I ever fired was Winchester .45 ACP 210 gr SWC target loads. The problem was that the low (claimed 710 f/s) velocity allowed my poor follow through to spread the groups. You don't mention velocity but, I expect you'll shoot better if the bullet's moving at a decent velocity.

 

[gwpercle]

My thought's also ... check the bullet .
Too Hard ... Too small ... have you slugged and measured your barrel and cylinder throats ...

With cast lead bullets remember two things ... Fit is King and a Small
Undersized , Hard bullet will give lousy accuracy .\

4.5 grs TiteGroup should be accurate ... I don't think it's your load ...
and another powder may not do the trick .

My Pet Loads are with a 240 gr. or 250 gr. cast LSWC
4.5 grs Bullseye
4.5 grs TiteGroup
4.5 grs Red Dot
5.5 grs HP38 / W231

If it won't shoot accurately with one of these loads ... check the Bullet and/or the Gun ... those loads should shoot !
Good Luck,
Gary

 

[toad67]

So, for a little more detail, I haven't slugged the bore or the cylinders on either the 69, or the 629. I was working up some 44 mag loads at the time for the 629 and it would shoot .429" JHP's into a nice 1" group, so I know it shoots.
The cast bullets I'm trying to make into 44spl loads are Oregon Trail .431", 200 grain RNFP. The grouping is about the same from either gun (4"-69 and 6.5"-629). The 629 seems to be consistently getting 50fps more on every charge weight that I shot. With 5.5 grains of Titegroup, I was getting 900fps from the 629 and 850fps from the 69.
I'm not looking for a target load, just a fairly accurate plinker. In my first post, I was alluding to the fact that I was thinking it might be the bullet also, but wondered what you guys thought. Since I don't have any other bullets, but do have other powders, I guess I will try some of those. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[BillBro]

Oregon Trail bullets are pretty darned hard.

 

[toad67]

Oregon Trail bullets are pretty darned hard.

According to them, they're 15BHN, which does seem to be right between CAS and Standard hardness. Hmmm, maybe I should save my time and order some different bullets.

 

[rockquarry]

According to them, they're 15BHN, which does seem to be right between CAS and Standard hardness. Hmmm, maybe I should save my time and order some different bullets.

I prefer softer bullets even for magnum loads, but if your bullet fit is perfect or close to it, 15 BHN bullets should work without leading. If your fit isn't good, they will lead and accuracy will be mediocre at best.

 

[Marcruger]

You drew the wrong conclusion blaming TiteGroup. It's your Oregon Trails bullets that are the culprits.

When Oregon Trails were a stand-alone company I used their .44 caliber 240 grain LSWC bullets as recommended to me by John Taffin. Good stuff. When I ran out, I went to buy more and found they'd been bought by Rim Rock. I had terrible accuracy after the switch. It turns out after testing that they are harder than advertised, and much harder than earlier. They weren't obturating and were leading as a result.

A friend recommended that I try Missouri Bullets. I ordered the lowest hardness with the powder coat Hi-Tek coating. Voila! Back in business. Great accuracy, and no leading at all. Very forgiving bullets with that coating.

TiteGroup is misunderstood. Think of it as Bullseye (just a hair slower) with great consistency and very little position sensitivity. Not for fast 44 Special loads like 7.5 grains of Unique, but it will push a 240 grain LSWC to 850 fps within pressure limits. A little more powerful than a 45acp, so no slouch.

5.0 grains of TiteGroup under a MO Bullets 240 grain Hi-Tek coated LSWC (crimped in crimping groove) in Starline brass and a Winchester LPP will generate some amazing numbers over a chronograph. Very accurate, won't beat you up, and generates around 850 fps. Give it a try.

 

[gwpercle]

The bullets are too hard for the vel. and pressures you are ...
Shooting for ( sorry about the bad pun) .
You will do better with bhn 8 - 9 for those loads .
Hardness is good for magnum loads ... and the shooting public has been sold a story about Hard Bullets being better ... they aren't except when you want +1000 fps .
Took me 40 years to learn that ... Try Clip on Wheel Weight metal mixed 50/50 with soft lead ... that will give you bhn 8 - 9 and is just right for midrange loads . If you cast them ... simply air cool .
I use this mix for all my light and standard pressure mid-range handgun loads ... and it works like a Black Magic Voo-doo Spell .
Don't get suckered into the harder is better mantra ...
Gary

 

[Model19man]

I'm running 7 gr 231 / hp38 with a 240 keith from Missouri Bullet.

out of a 4 inch smith it's good plinker, but not very good at 100 yds.

I use the same bullet and powder but a little less powder. I find that it is a great load from my Colt SAA - very accurate. Maybe try a load like 6.5 grains under the same bullet and see how it works for you.

 

[rockquarry]

The bullets are too hard for the vel. and pressures you are ...
Shooting for ( sorry about the bad pun) .
You will do better with bhn 8 - 9 for those loads .
Hardness is good for magnum loads ... and the shooting public has been sold a story about Hard Bullets being better ... they aren't except when you want +1000 fps .
Took me 40 years to learn that ... Try Clip on Wheel Weight metal mixed 50/50 with soft lead ... that will give you bhn 8 - 9 and is just right for midrange loads . If you cast them ... simply air cool .
I use this mix for all my light and standard pressure mid-range handgun loads ... and it works like a Black Magic Voo-doo Spell .
Don't get suckered into the harder is better mantra ...
Gary

You're right, of course, but regrettably, you'll never sell the "hard cast" advocates. While there is understandably a small niche for hard cast bullets, it's obvious from many posts that quite a few don't understand alloy hardness. Maybe they like the way "hard cast" looks or sounds when they type it or say it.