flame cutting

[cracker57]

Another thread got me to thinking(I know dangerous)
Are some powders more prone to flame cutting than other powders? I load 44 mag with H110 and I know the muzzle flash is a big ball of fire.
I don't shoot whimpy loads and like ringing steel at 100 yrds. I am happy with H110 but if theres a better powder with less flame cutting that would make the revolver happy too.

 

[silicosys4]

Heavy charges of ball powders coupled with light bullets are the combination to avoid.

 

[38SPL HV]

I’d recommend VV powders, N110 or N350 …single base powders burn “cooler.”

 

[rockquarry]

I’d recommend VV powders, N110 or N350 …single base powders burn “cooler.”

2400 (my favorite for .357 & .44 Magnum) is hard to locate now, but Accurate #9 isn't. It's very similar in burn rate to #2400.

 

[Greyman50]

Sadly 2400 is gone.

 

[colt_saa]

Are you referring to flame cutting of the top strap? Or are you referring to erosion of the forcing cone due to flame cutting?

It is true that both are most commonly caused by large charges of ball powders. However flame cutting of the top strap resolves itself after a certain depth. And for erosion of the forcing cone to actually affect performance would require many tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition. However forcing cone erosion does look ugly much earlier than 10s of thousands of rounds but that is only cosmetic

If erosion from ball powders ever becomes an issue of performance with your firearm you will have spent many times more money than the cost of the firearm on the ammunition that you have either bought or hand loaded. I know this strange to think of the firearm as the least expensive thing in that equation but it is

For more than four decades I have been hand loading very large charges of H110 in in the 357 Magnum as well as the 41 Magnum. I have put many 10s of thousands of lightweight projectiles downrange over those years.

While both types of erosion are visible in many of my firearms none have ever experienced a problem so severe that the firearm or barrel needed to be replaced for performance reasons.

I happen to enjoy the high performance provided by H110 I also enjoy the beautiful orange fireball that comes out of the muzzle as well as the deep throaty kaboom instead of a sharp bang that is created by other powders

Personally, I will never stop using high performance powders like H110 in my hand loads

 

[MSD2343]

So here’s a shot of the forcing cone of my Model 27-9 bought new in 2012. I have over 15k rounds downrange with about 80% of those .38 special. The .357s have nearly all been 158 grain garden variety range ammo. I never use lightweight bullets or flamethrower powders.

While the top strap flame cutting (that can’t be seen here) is negligible, I do wonder if the forcing cone erosion is of a concern. Is this mostly just cosmetic or am I well on the path to needing the barrel set back and recut? BTW, the cylinder gap measures .006 and she still locks-up like a vault.

Appreciate any thoughts.

 

[stansdds]

The biggest offender with flame cutting and erosion is H-110/W-296. It is a very slow burning, ball powder, the slowest burning ball powder that is usable in handgun cartridges. Faster burning powders will not generate as high of a velocity as you can get with H-110/W-296, but they won't produce as much erosion either.

 

[taz666]

Wondering if combining 38 special cases, with lighter bullets and slower powders when used for .357 mag loading, would benefit from the slight additional distance to the B/C gap and forcing cone.

 

[mtgianni]

The K frame cracks and throat erosion seemed to be greatest with light bullets, 110 & 125 gr, and ball powders. The worst problem seems to be when the bullet has passed through the throats. Delaying that millisecond by using longer bullets, [heavier] seems to be the answer. I consider 240 gr bullets to be light in 44 magnum. Staying heavier than that gives the bullet a longer time to pass through the forcing cone and allows the powder a more complete combustion.

 

[bedwards]

So... I have 4 lbs H110 and 3 lbs 296. I don't load light weight bullets. How do I use this powder with 158gr lead swc for 38 spl and 357 mag so I don't ruin my guns?
I also shoot 454 Casull 300gr lswc and 44 Mag 240gr lswc. Upon edit I also have a 265gr lswc gc in the 44.

 

[taz666]

bedwards .. I think you'll be just fine with 158 grains bullets. When a bullet base is even with the forcing cone at the B/C gap is when flame cutting would be at its peak. The heavier/longer bullet would delay this "moment" enough for a more complete powder burn within the cylinder/case. At least that's the theory.

 

[Hair Trigger]

So here’s a shot of the forcing cone of my Model 27-9 bought new in 2012. I have over 15k rounds downrange with about 80% of those .38 special. The .357s have nearly all been 158 grain garden variety range ammo. I never use lightweight bullets or flamethrower powders.

While the top strap flame cutting (that can’t be seen here) is negligible, I do wonder if the forcing cone erosion is of a concern. Is this mostly just cosmetic or am I well on the path to needing the barrel set back and recut? BTW, the cylinder gap measures .006 and she still locks-up like a vault.

Appreciate any thoughts.

That looks more like lead fouling along the face of the FC. The near inner edge in the picture is still sharp and I don't see pitting indicative of flame cutting.

 

[stansdds]

Wondering if combining 38 special cases, with lighter bullets and slower powders when used for .357 mag loading, would benefit from the slight additional distance to the B/C gap and forcing cone.

No, it won't. Plus, you have less case capacity, so you would have to work up your own loading data. Better have a chronograph and a pressure test barrel. If you did create full power 357 Magnum loads using 38 Special brass, heaven help if those reloads somehow made their way into a vintage 38 Special revolver or one with an aluminum alloy cylinder.

 

[taz666]

Safety first for sure stansdds.

 

[MSD2343]

That looks more like lead fouling along the face of the FC. The near inner edge in the picture is still sharp and I don't see pitting indicative of flame cutting.

I scrub across the face of the forcing cone with a nylon brush, but I agree that there may still be a fair amount of lead fouling. Pefhaps I need to upgrade my FC cleaning with a bronze brush.

 

[71vette]

I scrub across the face of the forcing cone with a nylon brush, but I agree that there may still be a fair amount of lead fouling. Pefhaps I need to upgrade my FC cleaning with a bronze brush.

Your forcing cone looks fine. Yes, brass brush would probably help. Certainly won’t hurt. Nice 27 by the way!

 

[rockquarry]

I scrub across the face of the forcing cone with a nylon brush, but I agree that there may still be a fair amount of lead fouling. Pefhaps I need to upgrade my FC cleaning with a bronze brush.

Either get a Lewis Lead Remover or Brownell's "Double Tuff" bronze brushes. The Lewis tool will remove all forcing cone lead buildup. The "Double Tuff" brushes will do the same if the buildup is not too bad.

 

[Gn4hyr]

comment confirms what ive been reading in other places, so listed data, the faster powders would have smaller charge weights like say titegroup? and probly need to confirm against a chart?..thanks

 

[aphelion]

My experience has been that either 4227 will be the least erosive of the powders for full house loads. 296/H110 are the worst. 4227 won’t give as high velocity as 296, but the difference isn’t a big deal. Besides the heat and pressure, it looks like to me the ball powders themselves have a sandblasting effect. Some individual revolvers will show more rapid erosion than others. I remember S&W .357s from the mid to late ‘70s would show cutting and erosion almost immediately no matter what powder was used. Interestingly, my Redhawk has had a couple of thousand of the JDJ 325 gr bullet and JDJ’s load of 296 through it and shows no cutting and very minimal barrel erosion. It is the only revolver I use 296 in for that reason. That load turns the .44 into a whole ‘nother smoke.