Home Brew FBI Load Fail

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I wanted to duplicate the infamous FBI 38 Special load for my revolver/rifle practice ammo. I used the Hornady 158gr lead SWC-HP with the knurled shank. I am loading them to 1000fps out or a 3" revolver and that gets 1400fps from the rifle. These bullets do NOT expand. The tumble and smush the hollow point over. what bullets are you using to get expansion? I may try a cast bullet instead of the swagged lead next time. I have had good performance from Matt's Bullets soft cast bullets in 44 and 45. I may see if their bullet will expand.
 
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Into what type of medium are you firing your bullets?

Over the years I have used old telephone books (dry and wet), newspaper (dry and wet), milk jugs filled with water, buckets of sand, probably a few others. Today the "standard" seems to be ballistic gelatin, with or without barriers of fabric, leather, etc (perhaps imitating the FBI laboratory testing procedures).

The best you can expect from any medium will be comparative data, how one bullet or load compares to another in that specific medium, on that day, in that particular firearm, etc.

I have used several hundred swaged handgun bullets from Speer and Hornady. I have also been casting my own bullets, including hollow-point styles, for over 50 years and using lead alloys providing a wide range of hardness.

Bullet expansion seems to be a mantra for today's shooters. Anything that doesn't mushroom perfectly in the testing media must be deemed insufficient for any purposes. That which expands to 1.7 times caliber diameter is deemed to be infinitely better than the one that only provides 1.2 times original diameter.

I have shot cast bullets in handguns and rifles at velocities from about 700FPS to 2500FPS (certainly not the same bullets or same firearms!), and I have taken a dozen or more game animals with cast bullets. In critters with fur, skin, bone, and muscle surrounding the vital areas very few bullets will expand usefully; if anything, too many will shatter or disintegrate, tumble, fail to maintain the intended path of penetration to do the necessary work.

Hollow-point bullets (whether jacketed, cast, or swaged) that impact on a living critter are much more likely to fragment, disintegrate, separate into pieces, and/or tumble than they are to mushroom out into a poster image for your scrapbook.

In North America soft-point expanding bullets have become the most popular, and many states require these for hunting use. In Europe, Asia, Africa, and much of the rest of the world solid bullets are the preferred choice (especially for large and dangerous game).

We can all choose what we want to use. Some choose based on advertising or published opinions (frequently those who make their living from manufacturers' endorsement contracts). Some of us choose to use what we know will get the job done without worrying about the tiniest details.

Just an opinion from an old heretic who has been down the same rabbit hole more than once.
 
You're shooting a swaged HP bullet at 1400 FPS and it does NOT expand? What is your test medium? I still have some of the Speer swaged SWC HP that's pressed into the copper cup and that expands perfectly in wet newsprint at 1200 FPS. The lead expands down to the copper and then stops. Or do you mean it's not expanding at the handgun velocity?
 
The Speer half jacketed HPs noted just above apparently used pure lead, the half jacket eliminates leading. They will expand at realistic handgun velocities. However, modern JHP bullet design has pretty much made them obsolete.

The best tissue simulation you're likely to have handy is water filled milk jugs. However, after decades and using many different versions of the factory Chicago/FBI/Pick an agency 158 gr LHP (Nyclad included), I've never been able to line up enough jugs to catch a bullet.* A couple of sources with access to autopsy records indicate that hitting bone (sternum/ribs) helps expansion quite a bit.

All that said, the most important factor in incapacitation is where you put the bullet. The second is sufficient penetration to disrupt vital areas. The 158 gr LHP definitely has the penetration thing down pat. The first is up to you.

BTW OP, the swaged lead bullets from Hornady, Speer, etc aren't intended for the velocities you're loading them to.

*After a test where the bullet passed through the equivalent of 30 inches of tissue, I gave up.
 
I thought the idea of FBI load was deep penetration from a non expanding wad cutter?????? That’s why I carry the Federal version
 
The Hornady .38/.357 158 gr lead SWC and SWC-HP projectiles are very "pointy" compared to other product lines, and do not offer the same level of terminal performance. Run your load tests again with better bullets and I expect you will have improved results.
 
I wanted to duplicate the infamous FBI 38 Special load for my revolver/rifle practice ammo. I used the Hornady 158gr lead SWC-HP with the knurled shank. I am loading them to 1000fps out or a 3" revolver and that gets 1400fps from the rifle. These bullets do NOT expand. The tumble and smush the hollow point over. what bullets are you using to get expansion? I may try a cast bullet instead of the swagged lead next time. I have had good performance from Matt's Bullets soft cast bullets in 44 and 45. I may see if their bullet will expand.

If you are making reloads only for your practice sessions, I don't quite get why expansion is important to you. IMHO, POA / POI, accuracy, consistency, felt recoil and reliability would be the items I'd be concerned with for range only sessions. Bullet expansion for practice ammo is really a non-issue. I believe that only Factory ammo should be used for SD/EDC purposes - but that's just me. I do reload but never carry reloads as SD ammo. Just very curious as to why this matters to you for practice ammo.
 
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The "FBI load", also known by and associated with other agencies, was a 158 grain SWC HP, usually +P. It came about in the 70s, IIRC, and long predated the actual FBI/IWBA testing that came about after the "Miami" shootout and the hard ballistic lessons coming from that event.

As noted above, placement is critical. Adequate penetration too. Expansion if it occurs is a bonus. For me, in most common handgun cartridges, I stick with LSWC. I can shoot a standard pressure .38 of such far better than 145grain Silvertip magnums. In revolvers that shoot auto pistol cartridges such as .45 acp, I stick with standard service loads advocated by Doc Roberts as I use in the auto pistols.
 
The “FBI Load” notwithstanding…the Feebs have a set of criteria for performance that suits them. The “Treasury Load”…a .38 Special 110 grain JHP +P+…suited their criteria. What it comes down to is any self-defense caliber and load has to be tailored to your individual and identified requirements…penetration…accuracy…time of year as in whether a potential assailant might be dressed in heavy clothing…and more.

There’s lots of excellent loads out there and all will put a hurt on someone in the event where lethal force is required. Putting them where any projectile can do its best is up to the shooter. If you can’t hit your target it can be made of depleted uranium and won’t matter a bit.
 
All agencies have their strengths and weaknesses in a variety of knowledge. After the Miami incident in 1986, the FBI put a hell of a lot of work into the ballistics, working without outside experts like Fackler.

I have a book somewhere that does a heck of a good analysis of the incident. There was noting wrong with the courage of the agents at all. One could critique their tactics including taking handguns to an event at which rifles were needed.
 
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Another aspect affecting FBI criteria is the ability of the load to penetrate a barrier with minimal deflection such as a windshield and the bullet not breaking up. Not everyone has such a need. Other agencies will save money by piggybacking their ammunition order on large orders such as that…whether that agency has done any analysis of what best suits their needs. There’s also the idea if it’s good enough for the FBI it’s good enough for them.

A lot of law enforcement agencies use the same brand of ammunition…Low Bid.
 
Another aspect affecting FBI criteria is the ability of the load to penetrate a barrier with minimal deflection such as a windshield and the bullet not breaking up. Not everyone has such a need. Other agencies will save money by piggybacking their ammunition order on large orders such as that…whether that agency has done any analysis of what best suits their needs. There’s also the idea if it’s good enough for the FBI it’s good enough for them.

A lot of law enforcement agencies use the same brand of ammunition…Low Bid.

Throughout my military service and law enforcement career I always appreciated being equipped with the finest products that the lowest bidders could deliver.
 
We used Federal 357B 125 grain JHP for a decade because the supply Deputy Chief got it cheaper than any Win or Rem ammo. The fact that it was extremely effective was reason two.

We were going to use #4 buckshot 12 gauge ammo because of better effectiveness and lower ricochet potential, but that made it too hard to score pellet holes on our 5-round qualification course (120 pellets v 45 pellets). I'm not joking.
 
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Just FYI, I chronoed the current production R-P version of the FBI load. It ran just under 800 fps from my M49, 840 fps from my 3" M64-6, and 860 fps from my 4" Colt Official Police. SD was in the single digits from the 3" and 4" guns.

Older versions of this load were loaded warmer, but I'm pretty sure none of them approached 1000 fps from a 4" barrel.
 

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