The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight

The last time an officer in my District killed a perpetrator there was a highly trained police sniper from the originating agency (of the critical incident) with high-dollar equipment on-site. He had taken a Gunsite counter-snipers course at his personal expense within the year.

When the perp leveled his 12 gauge shotgun at an out-of-position detective supervisor from 40 feet away and thumbed back the hammer, our guy fired with his long gun. The highly trained sniper couldn't make the decision (his Chief authorized him to fire at any deadly threat). Not impressed.
 
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SGT ROCK 11B said:
Most people will freeze because of the "Fight or Flight" Response. Professional Training makes a big difference.
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Just my opinion but mindset is what determines if you get caught in the "Fight or Flight Response" The mindset of being unwilling to be a victim is what counts and has to be an ingrained part of who you are. Professional Training on shooting drills will not instill this if you don't already have it.
 
M1A4ME said:
One of my partners back in the early 80's carried a S&W M59. I got to asking him questions about it and he pulled it out of the holster (we were in the office doing some paperwork near the end of our shift) and handed it to me.

I unloaded it and noticed the magazine wasn't full. I unloaded the magazine and found it had 5 rounds in it. Five in the magazine and one in the chamber for a total of 6 rounds. I asked about spare magazines and he told me he didn't need one. I asked why only six rounds and no spare mags. His reply was, "The FBI summary of Police Officers Killed each year says the average rounds fired in a gunfight is 2 to 3 rounds. I've got twice that. Why would I need more?" I asked him if he understood what an average was and how you calculate "average". He told me he knew all that stuff. I left it alone at that.

The full story was the six rounds were a mix of hollow points and FMJ. US made hollow points. Foreign military surplus FMJ. Different brands/headstamps. I asked about that and was told the hollow points were for people and the FMJ for shooting through cars. I didn't try to understand how he was going to shoot the appropriate round at the appropriate target as he emptied the six rounds.

Statistics and averages are okay and even interesting sometimes. But I like to be prepared for more. Capable of more.
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The greatest problem I see is “Failure to Supervise”. Any Officer that thinks this way needs more training followed up by intense supervision and if necessary, discipline (up to, and including termination). The other Officers working on his shift are depending on him and his firepower.

I’m not trying to be hardcore but life sure can be...
 
I understand the historical studies showing typical distances and those are likely mostly still valid for the majority of us. But, in my area, more thugs are carrying rifles now and are going in groups more. These statistics could change. My opinion is we need to practice at least a little bit at longer ranges. Especially considering innocent bystanders may be in the area. Just my $0.02 worth.
 
URIT said:
Distances per Givens...
60 shootings were at 3-7 yards: most at 3-5 yards. Only 2 were at contact distance. Three were at longer distances: 15, 17, and 22 yards.
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I remember reading some FBI stats on shootings several years ago that had very similar findings. Also the average shots fired were between 3 and 5. In my house, the farthest shot I can take is around 10 yards max. If I look at a true scenario, it would probably occur at around 15 feet. That is what I practice at. I never understood the people that advocate an AR platform weapon for in home defense. Just doesn't make sense to me.
 
biku324 said:
I won't interpret anyone's words, but I do know litigation follows gunfire with monotonous regularity.
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This idea is usually put forth by the people actually trying to rob you. The people selling you SD insurance in the highly unlikely event you ever have to fire your gun in defense of your life. Shoot someone in a real SD event where your shooting is ruled legit by the local authorities and then face bankruptcy and the loss of your home through litigation. Certainly not in this part of the country. Let's see some actual cases where this has happened.
 
Just limit yourself to <7 yards and take your chances. Carry SD insurance and know the laws in your state. In some states you might get prosecuted by the local authorities.
 
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biku324 said:
The last time an officer in my District killed a perpetrator there was a highly trained police sniper from the originating agency (of the critical incident) with high-dollar equipment on-site. He had taken a Gunsite counter-snipers course at his personal expense within the year.

When the perp leveled his 12 gauge shotgun at an out-of-position detective supervisor from 40 feet away and thumbed back the hammer, our guy fired with his long gun. The highly trained sniper couldn't make the decision (his Chief authorized him to fire at any deadly threat). Not impressed.
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I know several SWAT - Fail stories too.

SWAT tends to become a "Frat Boy" party because they know they may never have to put a shot on a Bad Guy/Gal. 50 years ago not a problem they knew their job. Today it is about the bonus pay to buy a new monster truck.
 
alwslate said:
Just my opinion but mindset is what determines if you get caught in the "Fight or Flight Response" The mindset of being unwilling to be a victim is what counts and has to be an ingrained part of who you are. Professional Training on shooting drills will not instill this if you don't already have it.
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I disagree with your opinion.

In "Fight or Flight" that is the two most known steps. But what about the five steps in between, like begging, etc, etc.

Do you how many people grew up with grandparents, parents and others telling them, "thy not kill"? That is why 25% of troops in combat are ineffective. That is why 25% of cops can not pull a trigger on a felon. Another step is negotiating with a criminal.

Their is Liquor Store clerks who had a firearm and when threaten by a robber complied* and then was executed.

*Complying is another step of the seven steps in the "Fight or Flight" Response.
 
alwslate said:
This idea is usually put forth by the people actually trying to rob you. The people selling you SD insurance in the highly unlikely event you ever have to fire your gun in defense of your life. Shoot someone in a real SD event where your shooting is ruled legit by the local authorities and then face bankruptcy and the loss of your home through litigation. Certainly not in this part of the country. Let's see some actual cases where this has happened.
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Here you go:

Private Officer Breaking News: TN. teacher charged with murder www.privateofficer.com Found not guilty of murder after trial and incarceration.

https://www.gazettenet.com/Opening-arguments-for-trial-of-Brian-Camp-58066586 Found not guilty of manslaughter after a trial.

State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman (3): Why the Case was brought Everyone knows about Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin. Not guilty after trial.

Here in NM we have had homeowners charged after shooting burglars running away as well as civil litigation after self-defense shootings. Where there has been a personal injury there will be a personal injury attorney happy to take the case against anyone e with assets. Look carefully in your state's news and I suspect you'll find far more litigation than you knew of.
 
SGT ROCK 11B said:
I disagree with your opinion.

In "Fight or Flight" that is the two most known steps. But what about the five steps in between, like begging, etc, etc.

Do you how many people grew up with grandparents, parents and others telling them, "thy not kill"? That is why 25% of troops in combat are ineffective. That is why 25% of cops can not pull a trigger on a felon. Another step is negotiating with a criminal.

Their is Liquor Store clerks who had a firearm and when threaten by a robber complied* and then was executed.

*Complying is another step of the seven steps in the "Fight or Flight" Response.
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Disagree all you want. Seven steps to using your gun to defend your life including surrendering you gun to a bad guy? Your grandparents won't be there to read one of the Ten Commandments to you if you kill some one rather than turning the other cheek so the perp that ignored his grandparents can kill you. Ridiculous. If you haven't already developed the mindset of refusing to be a victim then you shouldn't even be carrying a gun.
 
biku324 said:
Here you go:

Private Officer Breaking News: TN. teacher charged with murder www.privateofficer.com Found not guilty of murder after trial and incarceration.

https://www.gazettenet.com/Opening-arguments-for-trial-of-Brian-Camp-58066586 Found not guilty of manslaughter after a trial.

State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman (3): Why the Case was brought Everyone knows about Zimmerman shooting Trayvon Martin. Not guilty after trial.

Here in NM we have had homeowners charged after shooting burglars running away as well as civil litigation after self-defense shootings. Where there has been a personal injury there will be a personal injury attorney happy to take the case against anyone e with assets. Look carefully in your state's news and I suspect you'll find far more litigation than you knew of.
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Here in Indiana there have been cases that were in the news papers and on the local news channels going back at least 40 years of SD shootings that were ruled legit with NO litigation that resulted. In the last few weeks there have been two incidents reported on the local news channel in which perps were killed by their intended victims with no charges filed and no litigation. If you are scared to death of possible litigation then you might as well forget SD and go ahead and die so your survivors can enjoy your assets.
 
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