1-1/2 Transitional?

[Woodenshins]

Well, I have been using this forum for good information for years... thought it was time I finally joined. I was hoping one of you might be able to help me confirm that this is a 'transitional' 1-1/2. Serial number is stamped in the butt and on the rosewood right side stock: 27738
Also, it cycles properly, but there is a bit of slop in the cylinder. Is this common for these?
Any information is helpful!

 

[Woodenshins]

More Photos

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

The experts will be along soon.

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. You have a Model 1 1/2 for sure, and yes there are transitional guns made around the serial number range of your revolver. There were about 1500 of these guns made up with leftover barrels/cylinders at the beginning of the Model 1 1/2, 2nd Issue.

The cylinder, barrel, and frame were stamped with a letter, letters, or a number for re-assembly purposes, but from the corrosion I cannot tell if yours has anything visible anymore? Looking at the rear of the barrel, it should be stamped below the bore. On the cylinder, the stamp would be on the face or maybe the rear, and under the left stock, you should find the same stamp.

The issue with your gun is that the hinge screw has been tampered with and replaced for some reason, maybe to fit the wrong barrel on the frame post-factory?? Given that and condition, the rarity of the gun is overshadowed by the condition and if you cannot make out the assembly stamps, there is no good way to know what you have. I am not certain if a factory letter would give you the answer either because many factory records were destroyed during this era, making identification impossible?

 

[Woodenshins]

The back of the cylinder has ‘SS1’ stamped on it. Each number between cylinders. The photo without stocks shows a ‘SS1’ stamp as well.
I’ll see if I can find any other markings. Thanks for the info!

 

[Woodenshins]

Confirmed, I can see the SS1 stamped on the barrel just below the cylinder divot as well. Thanks!

 

[Patbar]

Welcome to the Forum. You have a Model 1 1/2 for sure, and yes there are transitional guns made around the serial number range of your revolver. There were about 1500 of these guns made up with leftover barrels/cylinders at the beginning of the Model 1 1/2, 2nd Issue.

......................................................................

The issue with your gun is that the hinge screw has been tampered with and replaced for some reason, maybe to fit the wrong barrel on the frame post-factory?? Given that and condition, the rarity of the gun is overshadowed by the condition and if you cannot make out the assembly stamps, there is no good way to know what you have. I am not certain if a factory letter would give you the answer either because many factory records were destroyed during this era, making identification impossible?

Glowe, I'm a bit surprise by what you wrote about the number of mongrels produced, as I've always heard and read that only 650 units were produced, of which 400 were exported to France and 200 to Japan.

Also, it might be not very easy to adapt a first model barrel on a second model frame, as the base of this frame has to be much wider to adapt to the lock of the barrel.

See the difference below between the second model (top) and the mongrel (bottom).

 

[mmaher94087]

Patbar is spot on! The frames are wider at the barrel latch to accommodate the old-style octagon barrel. As noted, the barrel hinge screw has been replaced with a rivet. In addition, the hammer spur has been broken and rewelded. These revolvers are not easy to find.

 

[mmaher94087]

I forgot: "...but there is a bit of slop in the cylinder." That's common for a revolver of that age, however, the play is (was) adjustable. Post #2, photo #4 (showing the front of the cylinder), shows the spanner type nut that holds the cylinder pivot post. That post is adjustable, but I do not recommend trying to adjust it. Years of black powder residue has allowed rust to form in the threads. Attempting to adjust the pin most likely will result in ruining the spanner nut or crushing the cylinder while holding it in vise jaws.

 

[Woodenshins]

This is really good information. Thank you.

 

[Patbar]

I forgot to add that on the first model, the cylinder stop is at the bottom of the frame and thus, the notches on the cylinder are between the chambers, as on the second model, the cylinder stop is at the top of the frame and thus the notches are on the axis of the chambers.

So, its is impossible to assemble a first model round cylinder on a second model frame.

 

[glowe]

The reference to 1500 transition guns is found in Roy's book. The factory did fit 1st Issue guns with 2nd Issue frames, but have sold all mine and forgot about the differences in the front latch and cylinder stop.

 

[Woodenshins]

In your opinion is this a gun to sell or hold onto? Is the market hot for these?

 

[glowe]

Market has never been hot for this model, but if in high condition, they do bring good money. Caliber is obsolete so collectors only do that, collect and look at them. Sure, there are collectors out there to buy your gun, but at what price is the question. I could not even guess at what price it would sell for. One sold at Morphy in Very fine condition in 2023 for $960.

There is some discrepancy as to how many were made, since Supica/Nahas book states only 650 were made, but I prefer to believe that Roy Jinks must have found some documentation in order to come up with 1500 number.

 

[mmaher94087]

The only (and latest) reference to the "Transitional" Model 1 1/2, .32 RF that I've found in Neal & Jinks is on page 56 and 57 of the Revised Edition, 1975. This stated that 650 were made with serial numbers between "27,200-28,800.

Having owned two of these, I'm in the boat to see the any documentation relating to these. I find it hard to believe that Smith & Wesson would tool up to produce 650 different frames only to keep from wasting 650 barrels. Unless, and I suspect, the raw forged frames are the same and only differ on the bottom frame where they are milled for the 2nd Model barrel latch.

 

[glowe]

The issue with the 650 number is that factory records are incomplete during the production of this transitional revolver. Roy states that the records existing indicate that 650 were sold, but also stated that records were incomplete, so how many made will always be a question. If the factory manufactured enough frames and cylinders to build all or any of this model, we will not know how many actually left the factory. Our observations that the company never wasted any parts leads me to believe that the records of the other 850 were lost but the guns were likely produced.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I tend to agree with glowe. D. B. Wesson was a typical thrifty
New England Yankee of the period and would not have left parts
unused if there was a way of turning them into money. It is true
that there is documentation on only 650 known produced at this
time but this doesn't negate the possibility there were more made.

There is documentation on the 1500 barrels and cylinders that
Savage and King had left over and their requested shipping of
same to S&W. I am curious about the cylinders. Roy Jinks says
that the barrels and cylinders were completed. I wondered if
the cylinders had their stop notches cut. If they were, they
couldn't be used in the later 1-1/2 because of the change in
the location of the cylinder stop.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

The MONGREL

Factory records seem to be pretty much intact for these. See attached photo 1.

The 1500 parts is mentioned but not confirmed as entirely assembled. Pure guess beyond that.

Also well documented is where they were shipped. Photo 2

The 1500 parts number could have easily included late model 1 frames until exhausted. Pure speculation. 650 is factory records supported information. Doesn’t look like a guess to me.


Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Factory records seem to be pretty much intact for these. See attached photo 1.

The 1500 parts is mentioned but not confirmed as entirely assembled. Pure guess beyond that.

Also well documented is where they were shipped. Photo 2

The 1500 parts number could have easily included late model 1 frames until exhausted. Pure speculation. 650 is factory records supported information. Doesn’t look like a guess to me.


Murph

I'm not sure what your point is. Nobody said the 650 figure
was a "guess." Everyone here accepts that the Factory records
indicate the sale of 650 of these "Mongrels" but that doesn't
mean others weren't made.

So, what we're speculating about is what happened to the other
850 barrels and cylinders? Your idea that some were used to
complete left over 1st model frames is a good one but I doubt
there would have been that many left over from the 1st model.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Production vs Surplus

Ok,
Allow me to clarify.( From a business standpoint)

The absolute worst thing you can do as a manufacturer is to generate SURPLUS.

In other words assembled goods that you can’t sell because the market has no interest.

Leftover parts isn’t really a huge loss. However, “assembled” guns is a huge loss because you spent all that time, effort, man hours, equipment hours, etc producing something that won’t sell.

So just because we can account for 1500 obsolete barrels and cylinder’s doesn’t suggest they were ALL actually assembled into guns.

Reason being the model was no longer in production and won’t sell in lieu of the Market recognizing the NEW MODEL as a distinct improvement.

So those leftover parts after the 650 were actually assembled and sold? Had no purpose. Those parts were more than likely no longer marketable. So assembling guns that won’t sell hoping they would sell would be a bad idea.

Having something and actually selling it are two totally different realities. Especially when that item is obsolete.

Murph