Anyone Recall Reports of a Stolen .38-44 Outdoorsman?

[Casual Smith Nut]

I can see a model 49 sharing a prewar OD serial number, not a model 15 however since a 15 would have a “K” in the serial whereas a prewar OD would have only numbers. That makes me wonder about the theft claims.

Gunhohulk, were you able to verify the real serial on the OD? Oftentimes folks at gun stores and places such as Cabelas will unknowingly use the fitting/assembly number rather than the real serial. If the serial used on the OD for the claim was clearly out of sequence for a prewar OD, that would give more likelihood that the assembly number was used rather than serial number.

If the theft claims were also done using the assembly numbers on a pre-49 or other pre-model number gun while thinking of the later used model number designations, that would confuse things further.

 

[adrianolsen]

What does the gun's S/N have to do with a NICS check?...I've called in thousands of background checks to the feds, and other than asking whether the firearm is a long gun or a handgun, no mention was ever made of a S/N... ...Ben

In this state, they run it through CLETS, which is the state's system. Then NICS, which is nation wide, the serial number is one of the identifiers that has to be added. Since most officers are not gun people, there is a good chance they entered the wrong make code, model, or serial number confusing it with an assembly number

 

[Gun Relics]

In this state, they run it through CLETS, which is the state's system. Then NICS, which is nation wide, the serial number is one of the identifiers that has to be added. Since most officers are not gun people, there is a good chance they entered the wrong make code, model, or serial number confusing it with an assembly number

One time I was registering a pre-27 and I referred to it as model name "357 Magnum" - they kicked it back to me and said "what is the correct model name, not caliber". So I sent it back to them with the corrected model name of "Pre-Model 27" and they signed off.

A few months later, I was registering another pre-27. So I used the Model name "Pre-Model 27" - they kicked it back to me to correct the model name. So I used "357 Magnum" and they signed off on it.

 

[poledorus]

I recently stumbled across this nice outdoorsman on Cabelas and had it sent my way. Did the background check last week and today I got a call that the background check was denied due to the gun being reported as stolen. CA DOJ Bureau of Firearms is next to impossible to reach so I’ve been speaking with the Local PD’s trying to track down more info and it’s starting to sound like it’s a case of mistaken identity and the stolen guns with the same serial number are a model 15 and a model 49. I have a sinking feeling that the Outdoorsman is going to find its way to the crusher…
View attachment 761899

Keep your fingers crossed that I can somehow pull this one back out of the governments dirty fingers.

It might be that the database has not been updated. Almost 30 years ago, the Provost Marshal at old Fort Ord confiscated a Smith 19 I was registering because it came back as stolen from the FBI. I had purchased it at a gun show in San Antonio, Texas, the year before. After about a month, the weapon was cleared and released to me: turns out it had been stolen, and then recovered and sold on the surplus market. The FBI had never corrected the record. This could be the case with your revolver. Keeping a tight loop with your PD is the best course.

 

[Mike LaNier]

I wonder how in the world Cabelas got the gun entered into their FFL book with it being a 'stolen gun'?. Sounds fishy to me. I suspect the CA Bureau of Firearms needs to be asked to double-check. As far as serial numbers go, BATF uses them for all traces; that might be where the problem is as well. I always had pretty good luck dealing with the BATF folks on traces; they aren't like the BATF folks who come to the store and check all your 4473's for errors in penmanship and such. ML

 

[Gunhohulk]

I can see a model 49 sharing a prewar OD serial number, not a model 15 however since a 15 would have a “K” in the serial whereas a prewar OD would have only numbers. That makes me wonder about the theft claims.

Gunhohulk, were you able to verify the real serial on the OD? Oftentimes folks at gun stores and places such as Cabelas will unknowingly use the fitting/assembly number rather than the real serial. If the serial used on the OD for the claim was clearly out of sequence for a prewar OD, that would give more likelihood that the assembly number was used rather than serial number.

If the theft claims were also done using the assembly numbers on a pre-49 or other pre-model number gun while thinking of the later used model number designations, that would confuse things further.

Yes I was able to verify the S/N in person while I was doing the background paper check. It was entered into the system as Model “none”. What’s really interesting is that Cabelas as well as 2 local Agencies have said they don’t have any direct contacts to reach the DOJ BOF.

 

[Gun Relics]

Since they can't release the gun to you I assume it's sitting there with them still. They need to contact DOJ at the email address I gave you. They will turn it over to the DOJ agent assigned to Cabela's area and the agent should be able to fix it.

 

[Doug M.]

California is a major fecal show in many ways, and with guns even worse. I had a gun stolen in a burglary a few years ago and when it was recovered in CA, the hoops I had to find and then jump through were staggering. Even though it was going to be sent out of state to my local PD and I would have to clear a background here, I had to go through a lot of CA BS including their background.

A friend had his BUG taken after an OIS for no evidentiary reason at all and it took him well over a year to get it back, and he too had to jump through all the same hoops. In essence, CA treats legitimate gun owners as if they are criminals. Sad to say, the entireI 5 corridor is taking that as a good example.

 

[decuerno]

California is a major fecal show in many ways, and with guns even worse. I had a gun stolen in a burglary a few years ago and when it was recovered in CA, the hoops I had to find and then jump through were staggering. Even though it was going to be sent out of state to my local PD and I would have to clear a background here, I had to go through a lot of CA BS including their background.

A friend had his BUG taken after an OIS for no evidentiary reason at all and it took him well over a year to get it back, and he too had to jump through all the same hoops. In essence, CA treats legitimate gun owners as if they are criminals. Sad to say, the entireI 5 corridor is taking that as a good example.

That is an excellent example of “local” control….which most conservatives favor…. the folks in CA like it, so that’s what they voted for and got. If you are in CA and don’t like it….Move. :>}. …and that’s why we have so many new residents (ex-Californians) here where I live. (We call it the “californication” of Texas.)

 

[Gunhohulk]

Since they can't release the gun to you I assume it's sitting there with them still. They need to contact DOJ at the email address I gave you. They will turn it over to the DOJ agent assigned to Cabela's area and the agent should be able to fix it.

Thank you I’ll reach out to that email address as well and hopefully this can get cleared up.

 

[Gun Relics]

What's sad is the barriers in CA accomplish little except to set up the owners, manufacturers, FFl's and the State itself for expense and violations. Background checks on people, well OK, but the gun regs are extreme and many don't make sense. They need to be revised big time.

 

[moosedog]

I once watched one of our department know it all's and brown nosers, register a German Luger as a "GESICHERT" Pistol.
That is the German word for "safe" which is stamped by the safety. I asked if he needed a hand with the gun registrations and he said he had it covered. He did so good that he was soon promoted.

 

[jjfitch]

What does the gun's S/N have to do with a NICS check?...I've called in thousands of background checks to the feds, and other than asking whether the firearm is a long gun or a handgun, no mention was ever made of a S/N... ...Ben

 

[pawngal]

/\ Not true /\

 

[Muley Gil]

OK, it didn't register on my puny brain that the OP is in a location which requires additional hoops to jump through before receiving your own property...I blame an insufficient intake of coffee for my oversight...Endeavor to persevere!......Ben

Where did you find this info? It looks like AI, which is not reliable.

I don't know of any data base where an FFL can check the legal status of a firearm. NCIC is restricted to law enforcement and even law dawgs have to have a valid reason to run a firearm.

 

[jeffrefrig]

That’s a pretty nice gun, and probably pretty accurate shooter with the longer barrel. As I read in an earlier post, how did Cabelas get it without it being reported stolen when they acquired it? Seems like there may be a termite in the wood pile.

 

[pawngal]

Where did you find this info? It looks like AI, which is not reliable.

I don't know of any data base where an FFL can check the legal status of a firearm. NCIC is restricted to law enforcement and even law dawgs have to have a valid reason to run a firearm.

You are correct, Biden wanted it to be available to FFLs to access the stolen data but it did not happen.
Definitely has nothing to do with the Gun Control Act of 1968.

 

[Truckman]

That screenshot composed by AI (not a human being) is vague and misleading...It implies that the GCA makes it mandatory for an FFL to access NCIC records to insure a firearm does not actually belong to another person or company...I have not been a part of the licensed firearms industry for 17 years, and on the supposition that something new requirement might have been added since then, I looked it up myself...

Turns out that almost a year ago, then-AG Merrick Garland was quoted in an FBI press release of an interim rule allowing an FFL to voluntarily access NCIC records to see if a firearm is listed...If it is found to be listed in NCIC records, the FFL has the following option:

When a search indicates a firearm is stolen, the FFL may report that information to a criminal justice agency.

That tells me the FFL doesn't even have to tell anyone that he has a possibly stolen firearm in his inventory...What good is that?...

For those who favor compositions constructed by AI, here is what my Google search turned up:

AI Overview
Learn more

While there's no mandatory requirement for an FFL to check if a firearm is stolen before adding it to their inventory, a new rule allows FFLs to voluntarily access NCIC records of stolen firearms. This helps FFLs verify whether a firearm offered for sale has been reported as stolen.

Elaboration:

• New Rule:
  A rule signed by the Attorney General allows FFLs to access FBI records of stolen firearms in the National Crime Information Center (NCIC).
  
  
• Voluntary Access:
  The rule makes this access voluntary, meaning FFLs are not required to check NCIC records, but they have the option to do so.
  
  
• Purpose:
  This allows FFLs to verify if a firearm offered for sale has been reported stolen, helping prevent the sale of stolen guns.
  
  
• How it Works:
  FFLs can partner with law enforcement to search NCIC records or states can provide an extract of NCIC records to FFLs.
  
  
• Reporting Requirements:
  FFLs are already required to report stolen or lost firearms to the ATF and local law enforcement within 48 hours. They also need to document the theft or loss in their bound books.

Whether any of that made it into operational law would require a guess on my part...I can certainly guess at how it would be received by anyone in the firearms business...I'll leave it to an active FFL to provide any additional information......Ben

 

[pawngal]

This is the latest, An FFL still does NOT have direct access

Washington, D.C.
Criminal Justice Information Services Division
(304) 625-5820
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June 25, 2024

New Rule Provides Federal Firearms Licensees Access to FBI Records of Stolen Firearms​

An interim final rule signed by Attorney General Merrick B. Garland on June 24, 2024, will allow federal firearms licensees (FFLs) to voluntarily access records of stolen firearms in the FBI’s National Crime Information Center (NCIC). The rule implements parts of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (BSCA) and allows FFLs to verify whether a firearm offered for sale has been reported as stolen prior to adding it to their inventory.

FFLs will immediately have two options to access the stolen gun records:

1. FFLs may partner with law enforcement agencies to search the NCIC stolen gun records.
2. States may request an extract of the NCIC stolen gun records to make available to FFLs within their jurisdiction.

A third option under development will allow FFLs that currently leverage the National Instant Criminal Background Check System for firearm background checks via E-Check to also use E-Check to query the NCIC stolen gun records.

When a search indicates a firearm is stolen, the FFL may report that information to a criminal justice agency. This will assist law enforcement agencies investigating reports of stolen firearms by providing potential investigative leads and will help deter or halt the sale of stolen firearms through seemingly legitimate business transactions.

 

[Gun Relics]

That’s a pretty nice gun, and probably pretty accurate shooter with the longer barrel. As I read in an earlier post, how did Cabelas get it without it being reported stolen when they acquired it? Seems like there may be a termite in the wood pile.

As far as the ATF is concerned, the FFL isn't required to do anything with the usual gun purchase or sale except log it in to their internal records (with seller's ID etc.). Then when they sell it through another FFL (other Cabela's locations) they just log it out and note the dealer's license, location, etc. It is up to the local FFL dealing with the end user to determine what is required as far as state registration. Many states have no registration whatsoever, so stolen guns just won't come up through the FFL network.

With the millions of guns in circulation, the odds are pretty heavy against a gun to be on the hot list. it's obvious the laws weren't designed to locate and return stolen property.