Fallout from the SIG P320 Uncommanded Discharges

[Hawg Rider]

Just got word from my local gun club that until further notice SIG P320 handguns (all variants) are banned from the property. This includes use and/or possession. That means that I can no longer compete in my Club's USPSA Limited or Action Steel events with my SIG P320 X5 Legion. That was my primary competition pistol, and my Blade-Tech competition holster and rig are set up for it. Now I guess I have some decisions to make. My son manages a local gun store and has already had customers coming in to buy new pistols to replace their P320s. I think it's sad because SIG makes outstanding handguns, and my X5 Legion is one of them...but I guess it's a case of better safe than sorry!

 

[TJm15.38]

It's too bad and the company is getting a terrible reputation because of this situation. Nevertheless, there are lots of choices out there for other striker-fired pistols to compete with. Good luck.

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

Uncommanded discharges? Is that woke speak like an unhoused person?

I have more than a few 320 variants, and in the years I have owned them not one has gone off uncommanded!!

 

[Warren Sear]

Uncommanded discharges? Is that woke speak like an unhoused person?

I have more than a few 320 variants, and in the years I have owned them not one has gone off uncommanded!!

"Uncommanded discharge" is right up there with "administrative reload".

 

[45Smashemflat]

Urban outdoorsman?

 

[BB57]

Uncommanded discharges? Is that woke speak like an unhoused person?

I have more than a few 320 variants, and in the years I have owned them not one has gone off uncommanded!!

That's a "case study", and in the big picture a logical fallacy.

I've never personally had cancer. Hopefully neither have you. But in the big picture a lot of people get it and we both know cancer is a real thing. Just because I, and hopefully you, have not had it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I certainly don't deny it exists.

No one denies that if the Sig P320 has a problem it's caused by a very rare set of circumstances and or chain of events, so the rate of occurrence is very low.

To that rarity point, I did have an intussusception, which makes me a medical oddity as that is extremely rare in adults. The fact that it almost never happens means no one looked for it until I was just about dead. But will it still potentially kill an adult if it doesn't resolve itself? Absolutely.

The logic is no different with the Sig P320. I'm thrilled you have confidence in it. I hope that never changes.

A year and half ago I never would have imagined I'd end up in the hospital for seven weeks over something adults never get. But if I could have done something to change that or reduce the risk would I? Absolutely.

So, it's your choice but choose wisely.

 

[WR Moore]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but FWIW, SIG is offering a free upgrade package https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program. The video goes into detail on the changes they make to the trigger setup. The changes seem like they'd logically take care of the issue. [I do have to wonder if the DOD is going to take them up on the freebie ]

 

[Goony]

You're conflating two separate issues. The "voluntary" recall has been in place for some time, its purpose being to eliminate the possibility of discharge if the pistol is dropped. The more recent hubbub regarding spontaneous discharges when the gun is simply resting in a holster has not yet been addressed by the company (not counting their denials that such could actually ever happen).

The more serious fallout is that the following agencies have now withdrawn the P320 from authorized use as a duty sidearm: San Antonio PD, Chicago PD, Oklahoma City PD, and the Oklahoma HP. There may be others that have done (or will be doing) the same.

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but FWIW, SIG is offering a free upgrade package https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program. The video goes into detail on the changes they make to the trigger setup. The changes seem like they'd logically take care of the issue. [I do have to wonder if the DOD is going to take them up on the freebie ]

Thanks for the link, as I spoke with them today. I plan to send them my .45, as the serial number is old and the upgrade had not yet been done. I bought it early.
Sig tested their firearms to US Military and NATO standards, but now test them from higher drops and such. They sent me a shipping label by email. They will do the upgrade, then retest it at higher standards before returning like some company overseas did. We shall see, though I had no issues.

 

[Goony]

More agencies/organizations that have banned the P320: San Francisco PD, Houston PD, Denver PD, Milwaukee PD, the National Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association, and the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission. In addition, last month U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) issued an emergency, non-competitive requisition for Glock 19's to replace their P320's.

Seemingly a snowball rolling downhill that's becoming an avalanche. The ultimate fate of this pistol may rest with what the military decides to do with regard to their M17 and M18 variants.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

As has been written, regardless of what is done or how it's done, the SIG P320 is done. It will always and forever have a stigma attached to it and that will not go away. The best thing SIG could do is cut its losses and cease production of newer ones before SIG's already battered reputation goes down the drain with it.

 

[Goony]

As has been written, regardless of what is done or how it's done, the SIG P320 is done....

I agree that may well be the case. I was watching an interesting video this morning in which a lawyer was explaining how you open yourself up to criminal/civil liability by just carrying one on the theory of that in the event of an unintended discharge, you might be found to have engaged in reckless/negligent behavior either on account of your knowing of the alleged defects or even on the basis of that as a responsible gun owner you should have known.

As far as my personal P320 goes, I don't think I could in good conscience pass it along it to another individual now, and I doubt many FFL holders will deign to handle one at this juncture, even if they could get it on the cheap. However, I'd remark that many law enforcement agencies moving off the P320 are trading them in, and those guns are then routinely being marketed to the general public. So maybe my scruples are overwrought. Regardless, in my mind, I've written my P320 off in toto, regarding it as unsaleable unless or until SIG has a epiphany and comes up with a credible fix (which might entail entirely redesigned replacement fire control modules) or ponies up for a mass buyback (fat chance).

 

[SSGRock]

Air Force Announces Arrest Related to Firearm Death of Airman That Prompted M18 Probe

The news marks a major development in the ongoing investigation into the circumstances behind Lovan's death and the scrutiny of Sig Sauer's P320 handgun.

www.military.com

 

[SSGRock]

Air Force Announces Arrest Related to Firearm Death of Airman That Prompted M18 Probe

The news marks a major development in the ongoing investigation into the circumstances behind Lovan's death and the scrutiny of Sig Sauer's P320 handgun.

www.military.com

Some of these uncommanded discharges may not have been uncommanded.

 

[tlawler]

I agree that may well be the case. I was watching an interesting video this morning in which a lawyer was explaining how you open yourself up to criminal/civil liability by just carrying one on the theory of in the event of an unintended discharge, you might be found to have engaged in reckless/negligent behavior either on account of your knowing of the alleged defects or even on the basis of that as a responsible gun owner you should have known.

I figured it was only a matter of time before the ambulance chasers would jump on this bandwagon. I expect John Morgan to change all of his billboards soon…Were you the victim of someone packing an Sig 320 that went off by itself? Call #LAW, that's all!

Some of these uncommanded discharges may not have been uncommanded.

The plot thickens…

 

[Baxter6551]

My former department had them for a year and after a well publicized discharge in the lobby of Montville CT PD they turned them back and adopted S&W M&P.

 

[Goony]

I figured it was only a matter of time before the ambulance chasers would jump on this bandwagon....

This particular one was a criminal defense attorney, not a civil litigator. He was also giving advice regarding what you ought to say to responding law enforcement should your P320 just go off, so that you wouldn't be making any prosecution on that reckless/negligent basis more likely.

 

[Doug M.]

At least one theory is that some of the small parts are made by an overseas contractor without adequate QC/QA and poor oversight by Sig. I am not an engineer or otherwise qualified to opine as the validity of the theory, but contracting out without appropriate mandatory standards and oversight is foolish.

I am now retired but spent my last 10+ years as a prosecutor in our civil division, and we had to ensure that any contract for anything had appropriate standards, oversight, insurance, indemnification, etc. Every once in a while we would get contracts that were insanely bad and someone in our division would really have to raise holy hell. I'd say that contracting out the small parts production in this case borders on stupid.

 

[WCCPHD]

At least one theory is that some of the small parts are made by an overseas contractor without adequate QC/QA and poor oversight by Sig. I am not an engineer or otherwise qualified to opine as the validity of the theory, but contracting out without appropriate mandatory standards and oversight is foolish.

I am now retired but spent my last 10+ years as a prosecutor in our civil division, and we had to ensure that any contract for anything had appropriate standards, oversight, insurance, indemnification, etc. Every once in a while we would get contracts that were insanely bad and someone in our division would really have to raise holy hell. I'd say that contracting out the small parts production in this case borders on stupid.

Around 2003 my agency changed our duty firearms from an early Sig P229 to the same gun, but made in the USA. We had 7 catastrophic failures the first time we went to the range. There were dozens of guns that had issues, but seven locked up and we could not move the slides. Sig took samples and looked at them here and sent some to Germany. They finally decided that it was a bad batch of springs that were sourced from an outside contractor. The "woven wire" springs shredded and locked up the guns (in the extreme and caused other issues in other guns.

They replaced all the springs and we never had any other issues with them.

On a side note, we had several firearms instructors who retired but remained with the agency as reserve special agents. When they retired they were allowed to purchase the original P229's for $1 (state law). Several years later we were on the range and were having some issues with the second batch of guns. We took them apart and they were wearing out. One of the instructors was carrying his original gun (over 12 years old at that point) and it was showing no signs of wear. This shows the reduction in quality of the weapons over time. The original frames were made in Germany.