.45 Super and/or .460 Rowland in a S&W 625 ???

[Naptown_Gaijin]

Hi Y'all!!

I have a S&W 625 Model of 1989, .45 /acP with a 5" bbl. Recently I have read in various forums that one can shoot .45 Super loads in the 625 with no problems; even heard that S&W "unofficially" says there is no harm in doing so. My question is simply this: do any of you big bore shooters have experience shooting .45 Supers in a 625, and if so, what advice can you give? Any problems with those high power 45 Super loads?

Finally, I have also read that some folks have tried .460 Rowland in a S&W 625 with mixed results.. Some say it works OK, others say the recoil is like a .454 Casul.... and, once the chambers are bored out for the .460 Rowland, the gun will never shoot .45 ACP's with much accuracy. Is there any truth to that? Would Mag-Na-Porting be required, or a better alternative, to the Rowland muzzle brake? Am I crazy to even think about doing a 460 Rowland conversion on a revolver?

I know everybody has an opinion, but I prefer to only hear from you if YOU PERSONALLY HAVE EXPERIENCE with either the .45 Super and/or the .460 Rowland in a S&W .45 ACP revolver.

Thanks in advance.

 

[larondo]

You should call S&W for accurate manufacturer advice.

 

[DeafSmith]

Clark's Custom Guns rechambers the 625 .45 ACPs to .460 Roland... hint hint.


I have shot .45 Supers out of my 3 inch 625



They are not fun to shoot.... +P .45 ACP is ok to shoot... plain .45 ACP are fun to shoot.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I shoot 45 Super power handloads out of my 4", 31 oz, Sc framed 325TR, either in 45 Super or 45 Auto Rim S-L brass, with no problems. Same for my 4" 625-8 Performance Center & my 2-3/4" M325NG.

Shooting 460 Rowland is a bridge too far for me in a S&W 45ACP revolver.

However I did ream a Ss cylinder for it to shoot my 45WSM (click for more info) which gives near 45 Colt powder capacity (just 18.9% less -vs- 35.4% less for a 45ACP) & allows the comfortable loading of 270gr L-SWC bullets loaded to 45 Super pressures in it while still being able to shoot 45ACP & 45ARs.

If you need more than 750me out of your M625 buy a certified magnum revolver.

.



.
.

45 Super, 185gr JHP
.
- full test here: https://smith-wessonforum.com/threads/45-super-face-off-4586-vs-625pc-new-data-9-18-22.681217/
.


.
.



.
.



.
.



.
.



.

 

[StrawHat]

Blue Dot has a good thing going for him! (I may have to ream one of my extra cylinders to use his cartridge.)

In the meantime, I use 45 Supers in my S&W Model 625-6 and custom Model 25-2,





Kevin

 

[Pizza Bob]

How about going the other way: .45 GAP in the 625. Gap has a slightly higher pressure rating (23K PSI vs 21K PSI), but I would think that would be OK. As GAP slowly dies on the shelves, I foresee some opportunities to pick up some ammo cheaply. Anybody shooting GAP out of their 625?

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[Ignatz]

I've shot 45 Gap out of my 625 for knock down steel matches, but have always gone back to 45acp. The 45 Gap ammo is expensive and more disappointing is Starline stopped making 45 GAP. I had some on order for 2+ years and then they discontinued it.
Back when Revolver was 6 shot in USPSA, someone was making Moon Clips for 45 Gap. Not sure, but I think it was Hearthco. The Brian Enos revolver section will show threads on 45 Gap if you go way back in time. lol

 

[StrawHat]

How about going the other way: .45 GAP in the 625. Gap has a slightly higher pressure rating (23K PSI vs 21K PSI), but I would think that would be OK. As GAP slowly dies on the shelves, I foresee some opportunities to pick up some ammo cheaply. Anybody shooting GAP out of their 625?

Adios,

Pizza Bob

If it can handle the 45 Super, the 45 GAP is not an issue.

I limit Super to 1955 and on.


Kevin

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I will not in mine.......Iffen I need more power I'll go to a bigger gun.

 

[The Kid]

I wouldn't be afraid of the Rowland being too high pressure, too much recoil, or degrading accuracy with regular ACP or AR ammo. I've fooled with enough Rowlands and cut enough 45 & 454 revolvers for ACP moonclips to not worry about those things.

But I wouldn't ream my 625 because I can't think of any real world gains I'd see over the 454423 Keith bullet loaded to 950fps in AutoRim brass. Heck in reality I've never had a H&G 68 loaded to the same speed stay inside any game animal.

If you're looking to seriously use a 45 ACP/AR as an outdoorsman's revolver you should learn to handload if you don't already. With the proper bullets it can really be a gentle giant of a light recoiling but extremely effective revolver and cartridge combo.

 

[StrawHat]

… I can't think of any real world gains I'd see over the 454423 Keith bullet loaded to 950fps in AutoRim brass. Heck in reality I've never had a H&G 68 loaded to the same speed stay inside any game animal.
…

This is true. My favorite load in my ACP revolvers is either the Lyman 453423 or the SAECO 453 over a hardball dose of powder. Either bullet will go through a white tailed deer from any angle.

Kevin

 

[hearth]

I've shot 45 Gap out of my 625 for knock down steel matches, but have always gone back to 45acp. The 45 Gap ammo is expensive and more disappointing is Starline stopped making 45 GAP. I had some on order for 2+ years and then they discontinued it.
Back when Revolver was 6 shot in USPSA, someone was making Moon Clips for 45 Gap. Not sure, but I think it was Hearthco. The Brian Enos revolver section will show threads on 45 Gap if you go way back in time. lol

I made a very limited number of gap moon clips. There was a buzz at first because they were a shorter length. Never materialized into anything.

 

[DRankin]

So much to cover here...

I carried a 25-2 and a 625 as duty guns. Still have several all steel 45 ACP revolvers in use. I carry a 325 PD most days, concealed.

I am convinced that a 45 ACP revolver is the most versatile platform out there.

First: Super and Rowland are perfectly safe in modern guns, but I don't see enough added performance in the Rowland to bother. As someone alluded to earlier, after you shoot completely through an animal with a 45 caliber 250 grain bullet.............. ya got what you need.

Next: The folks at Starline tell me that the brass they make for 45 ACP+P, 45 Super, 460 Rowland, 45 Colt and 45 Auto Rim are all drawn to the same pressure specs.

460 Rowland has the same loaded OAL as 45 ACP/Super and therefore the same internal volume as the Super. So you don't have to rechamber your 625 to shoot 460 Rowland, just put the loads in Starline Super or AR brass and get on with life.

Some folks carry a 44 Magnum snubby as a woods gun. I would encourage you to look at some of the research on the Ballistic By The Inch web site.

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home

(statement of intent)

ballisticsbytheinch.com

There you might find that a 45 Super in a short barrel revolver offers virtually the same performance as a short barreled 44 Magnum at much lower pressure with less muss and fuss........... and it reloads much faster. The 44 Magnum really does not get going until 5 or 6 inches of barrel come into the equation.

I reckon if I need more power I will just have to shoot twice..... or three times.

Bottom line.... I can shoot completely through an animal with a 45 Super or a 454 Casull...... but there ain't no fast follow-up shot with those more powerful rounds.

Just Say'n

 

[Riposte1]

I have several S&W wheelguns in .45 Auto/AR, I do not recommend things - to many variables - but I do report on what I have done.

Perhaps 25 years ago I rechambered a 25-2 for .45 Winchester magnum - not because I wanted to shoot hot loads but because I wanted to shoot 300 to 345 gr. bullets and use slow powder to do it.

When I finished the job I "proofed" the gun by firing Winchester 230 gr. factory win mag - it held together and I've never fiired another factory load in it - I have shot perhaps 100 heavy bullets at 900 to 1000 fps.

I did have to change out the front sight as the gun shot way high with heavier bullets.

I took that elk hunting in CO because I wanted something for a chance bear - I didn't see any.

Here one of my favorite loads is in the .45 Auto-rim where I load the 260 gr. Lee flat point long and use 2400 to push it to 1100 fps. I'll shoot that load in all my S&W except for my 1917 and my Webley which has been cut for .45 AR.

Riposte

 

[Riposte1]

So much to cover here...

I carried a 25-2 and a 625 as duty guns. Still have several all steel 45 ACP revolvers in use. I carry a 325 PD most days, concealed.

I am convinced that a 45 ACP revolver is the most versatile platform out there.

First: Super and Rowland are perfectly safe in modern guns, but I don't see enough added performance in the Rowland to bother. As someone alluded to earlier, after you shoot completely through an animal with a 45 caliber 250 grain bullet.............. ya got what you need.

Next: The folks at Starline tell me that the brass they make for 45 ACP+P, 45 Super, 460 Rowland, 45 Colt and 45 Auto Rim are all drawn to the same pressure specs.

460 Rowland has the same loaded OAL as 45 ACP/Super and therefore the same internal volume as the Super. So you don't have to rechamber your 625 to shoot 460 Rowland, just put the loads in Starline Super or AR brass and get on with life.

Some folks carry a 44 Magnum snubby as a woods gun. I would encourage you to look at some of the research on the Ballistic By The Inch web site.

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home

(statement of intent)

ballisticsbytheinch.com

There you might find that a 45 Super in a short barrel revolver offers virtually the same performance as a short barreled 44 Magnum at much lower pressure with less muss and fuss........... and it reloads much faster. The 44 Magnum really does not get going until 5 or 6 inches of barrel come into the equation.

I reckon if I need more power I will just have to shoot twice..... or three times.

Bottom line.... I can shoot completely through an animal with a 45 Super or a 454 Casull...... but there ain't no fast follow-up shot with those more powerful rounds.

Just Say'n

I've shot deer and wild boar with .44 Magnum (the Norma carbine load no less), .45 auto, .45 Auto-Rim and .45 Colt - neither the deer, boar or me could tell the difference! Killed a couple of deer with the .44 Spl. as well - couldn't tell the difference - but I have shot seven deer and seen a few boar shot with .357 magnum - there was a big difference on those (but perhaps I haven't found the right load yet ).

Perhaps, the .44 might penetrate a little better for big bears or something but we don't have any where I live.

To be fair, I have nothing against the .44 mag or even the .44 Spl.

Drive on!

Riposte

 

[DRankin]

The 25-2 has a bit of a built-in safety valve.

Every 25 -2 I have measured (except for one) had very generous throats, most measured .456 and some a bit larger. The one that didn't was my duty gun.

On one its trips back to the factory I asked if they had a cylinder with tighter .452 throats...... and was quite surprised they found one and installed it along with a new 6 inch (not 6.5 inch) barrel.

Wow. Shooting braced/standing on our indoor training range at about 30 yards, I could put all 6 onto a standard business card.

Conversely, every 625 I have encountered had .452 +/- throats and generally shot the same loads a bit faster than the 25-2 even though the 625's had shorter barrels.

In case you didn't know, there is a quick and dirty field test for oversize 45 cylinders.

Take a factory 44 Magnum or 44 Special cartridge and slip it into the cylinder going the wrong way. If it stops at the crimp, you've likely got .452 throats. If it drops all the way to the rim it's a .456 or larger throat.

Still Just Say'n...............

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I am convinced that a 45 ACP revolver is the most versatile platform out there.

460 Rowland has the same loaded OAL as 45 ACP/Super and therefore the same internal volume as the Super. So you don't have to rechamber your 625 to shoot 460 Rowland, just put the loads in Starline Super or AR brass and get on with life.

Bottom line.... I can shoot completely through an animal with a 45 Super or a 454 Casull...... but there ain't no fast follow-up shot with those more powerful rounds.

.

I agree a 45 ACP revolver is a very versatile platform.

I also agree "in theory you could" load 45 Super brass up to 460 Rowland load data, but in all good conscience you should not.

While the COAL" for both cartridges are the same (1.275", so they can fit in a 1911 magazine) 460 Rowland brass is longer than 45 ACP/Super/AR brass (.957" -vs- .893") for a reason, it's a 40K psi max round!

The 45 ACP is 21K psi max while the 45 Super is 25K-28K psi max. If that "overloaded" 45 Super round, or worse a 45AR round, got in the wrong firearm bad things might happen.

That is the reason I made my 45WSM cases shorter than a 45 WIN MAG's, so that a 45 WIN MAG round can't be "accidentally" chambered in it, it's too long as the 45WSM's chamber shoulder depth is reamed accordingly to a shorter depth & the cylinder can't be closed. Safety first!

Plus the 45 WIN MAG is a 41.5K psi round, again a bridge too far for me in my 45 ACP revolver.

Comparing a 454 CASULL (65K psi max) to a 45 Super isn't respectful of the 454 CASULL.

.

 

[DRankin]

.

I agree a 45 ACP revolver is a very versatile platform.

I also agree "in theory you could" load 45 Super brass up to 460 Rowland load data, but in all good conscience you should not.

While the COAL" for both cartridges are the same (1.275", so they can fit in a 1911 magazine) 460 Rowland brass is longer than 45 ACP brass (.957" -vs- .893") for a reason, it's a 40K psi max round!

The 45 ACP is 21K psi max while the 45 Super is 25K-28K psi max. If that "overloaded" 45 Super round, or worse a 45AR round, got in the wrong firearm bad things might happen.

That is the reason I made my 45WSM cases shorter than a 45 WIN MAG's, so that a 45 WIN MAG round can't be "accidentally" chambered in it, it's too long as the 45WSM's chamber shoulder depth is reamed accordingly to a shorter depth & the cylinder can't be closed. Safety first!

Plus the 45 WIN MAG is a 41.5K psi round, again a bridge too far for me in my 45 ACP revolver.

Comparing a 454 CASULL (65K psi max) to a 45 Super isn't respectful of the 454 CASULL.

.

No issues or problems my friend.

Nothing wrong with an abundance of caution.

Proper head stamped IS important.

'Just Say'n" that according to Starline the 45 Super and the 45 Rowland brass is identical except for trimmed length..... and an unimpeachable gunsmithing outfit ( Clark ) will lengthen the chamber to shoot Rowland in a 625.

 

[RebCop]

When the Rowland first came out Clark custom was rechambering M-25's and M-625's and I heard of no problems from that. I never did it and built a Hi-cap 1911 in Rowland with a spare ACP barrel.

 

[Riposte1]

.

I agree a 45 ACP revolver is a very versatile platform.

I also agree "in theory you could" load 45 Super brass up to 460 Rowland load data, but in all good conscience you should not.

While the COAL" for both cartridges are the same (1.275", so they can fit in a 1911 magazine) 460 Rowland brass is longer than 45 ACP brass (.957" -vs- .893") for a reason, it's a 40K psi max round!

The 45 ACP is 21K psi max while the 45 Super is 25K-28K psi max. If that "overloaded" 45 Super round, or worse a 45AR round, got in the wrong firearm bad things might happen.

That is the reason I made my 45WSM cases shorter than a 45 WIN MAG's, so that a 45 WIN MAG round can't be "accidentally" chambered in it, it's too long as the 45WSM's chamber shoulder depth is reamed accordingly to a shorter depth & the cylinder can't be closed. Safety first!

Plus the 45 WIN MAG is a 41.5K psi round, again a bridge too far for me in my 45 ACP revolver.

Comparing a 454 CASULL (65K psi max) to a 45 Super isn't respectful of the 454 CASULL.

.

10-4 on the cylinder throats! I bought a pinned barrel 25-5 once at a good deal. I knew about the potential problems with S&W .45 cylinder throats and I went to the reloading shelf and opened a box of .458 rifle bullets - two of the chambers in that 25-5 passed those bullets! I bought the gun anyway.

Later I bought a non-pinned barrel, they were tighter, still later I bought a 25-7 and a 625 Mtn. gun in .45 colt - all those were good to go.

I have a 1955 Target (no model # stamped) made in 1955 - I haven't measured the throats but it shoots just fine with cast bullets - here is a three shot group with 260 Lee flat points (loaded long) over 2400 at 25 yards - the gun is zeroed at 75 yards and hits 2" high at 25 and is point blank on an 8" target to 100. It has been cut to 5".



Riposte