J. Edgar Hoover's Reg. Magnum (Reg. No. 1)

[mikepriwer]

If this thread were the sole source of all information known about this
gun, then, in thinking about the various comments, it occurs to me that this
gun has two probable values. First, however, let me say a few words about
probability.

In the context of flipping an unbiased coin, we generally agree that it will
be heads half the time, and tails the other half. We therefore say that
the probability of heads is 1/2 ,or .5 , and the probability of tails is
likewise 1/2, or .5 . A key assumtion here is that there are no other
possible outcomes, and therefore the two probabilities must sum to 1.0
If the coin were biased, so that it came up heads 60% of the time, then the
probability of heads is .6, the probability of tails is .4, and again it
sums to 1.0 If it were possible for the coin to land on its edge 1% of the
time, then the probability of heads might be .595, the probability of tails
might be .395, and with the probability of it landing on its edge at .01, again
all the possibilities sum to 1.0 . The point about summing to 1.0 is that
one of the events must happen.

Now we can talk about the value of this gun. Given that all the known
information about the gun is contained within this thread, then I would argue
that the gun is either worth a large amount of money, or it is worth nothing.
For the sake of this discussion, this large amount of money is $1,000,000 .
I would assert that the gun is worth a million dollars with
a probability of .00001, and is worth nothing with a probability of .99999 .
Note that the two probabilities sum to 1 ; for the sake of this discussion,
there are no other possible outcomes, or values to the gun. Let me explain.

First of all, almost everyone participating has acknowledged that, if they
owned the gun, they would tell no one, except maybe a closest friend. And
they would never show it in public, nor acknowledge its existence, to anyone else.
"Loose lips sink ships." This raises the obvious question:
how many collectors would want to put themselves in such a position ? I mean,
how many collectors want to lose their bragging rights ? Isn't that what is
important to most, not all, but the vast majority, of collectors ? If this
issue , alone, eliminates 99% of the collectors (from having any interest),
then the probability of it being worth nothing is at least .99 .

Now - about only telling your best friend : there is an anecdotal expression
that goes something like: "If I tell you, I'd have to kill you. " Now, where
do you suppose that comes from ?! I think, on careful consideration, that
you could not tell your best friend, if for no other reason than, someday, he
or she might not be your best friend . Wives and hsubands are often talked
about as being best friends. But - think about the D word !. Realistically,
the owner could probably not tell anyone about it, and I would think that
that would further shrink the number of those would be interested, thus
increasing the probability of it being worth nothing to, maybe .999 . How
many potential owners want to be in the position of having to be certain that
no one else is around, when they want to view it ?

Second, from all the comments, its a safe assumption that the title of ownership
to this gun is not clear. More than likely, if it ever surfaced, there would
be more than one claim to ownership. And with a probability of something
larger than zero, the FBI would have some interest. No one has said that
the FBI would have zero interest. So, in addition to the other considerations,
we have the distinct possibility that someone may be legally able to claim
the gun away. This raises the obvious question: how many well-heeled
potential owners would be willing to accept such a risk ? In addition to
eveything else I have mentioned, I would think that this risk would further
erode the number of potential buyers.

I think it easy to justify that the probablility of it being worth nothing
is easily .99999 , assuming that all the known information is contained
in this thread.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[bettis1]

Mike, that made my head hurt...but I think you came to the same conclusion that I did in my initial response to the OP.

Originally posted by bettis1:
...I should expect any collector to be reluctant to reveal the whereabouts of Mr. Hoover's gun.

Bob

(Of course, there is an inherent defense against unwilling seizure of that gun that no one has mentioned...you just keep it loaded

)

Bob

 

[smith17]

Mike:
Over the last 2 years, I have enjoyed you posts/ opinions and figured I would like to split a 6 pack with you. However, I am now concerned that you would easily convince me that I would only be entitled to 2 of those beers.
Ed

 

[opoefc]

Mike, Your assumptions are based on intrinsic and tangible value, as measured in dollars. (There's one typo - .395 should be .595) and provide an interesting dissertation. Let's move now the the intangible value ( intangible value is the right to possess the gun, not the value of the gun) and how would you quantify that? The gun exists, so - Let's say I "borrow" it from the current possessor and thru a tranfer that is untracable, and at a future meeting of the S&WCA, I use it for a one gun display and win "Best Single Gun Display" award. A suprise display of 4 days would hardly allow any entity time organize a "Seize the Gun" exercise. After the meet, the gun goes back to its hiding spot, which I have no knowledge of, so can't reveal it. Now the world knows the gun exists. Has it's value, tangible or intangible changed? If so,how much? Is the intangible value more or less than the tangible value? Now, less further assume the possessor says " I will give the gun to any S&W Collector that wants it, no charge!" Any takers? They must assume the current burden of assumed tainted ownership chain. Would Mike Priwer want it, or any of the heavy duty RM collector? You Bet! Now the gun has a "Cost of Cure" factor - cleaning up the title and defending it's possession, Add up these costs and you get a "Bragging Right" cost, which may or may not the intrinsic value. Just something to mull over! (Dean, Take a couple of Aspirins and enjoy!)

 

[mikepriwer]

Now, less further assume the possessor says " I will give the gun to any S&W Collector that wants it, no charge!" Any takers?

Ed C.

Thanks - you just made my case. In this eventually, the gun was indeed
worth nothing ! The owner gave it away . .99999 is close enough !

As to your other suggestion about borrowing it and displaying it for a short
period of time at a S&WCA meeting : Now you have gone and told a whole bunch
of people about it. There is a better than zero probability that the FBI
will, at the very least, be aware that you knew where it was. Worst yet,
we do have S&WCA members that are active Special Agents. Suppose they were
at the S&WCA meeting ?! Even if they didn't confiscate it outright, you would
have a grade-A number 1 Excedrin headache for a long time to come.

Again - you've made my point, in two different ways. One, as a temporary
possessor, you could not resist the urge to brag about it - in this case, to
show it off. And Two, you went and told a whole lot of people , not all of which
may be able to keep the secret .

As to your final question , about whether I would want to try to clean up the
title - the answer is a loud and resounding NO . And I am not so sure that
any heavy-duty RM collector would want it. If it were even temporarily
confiscated, it might be decades before it was disgourged - if ever. In my view,
the 1/4" barrel variations are much more desireable.

From my own experience with a smoooth-bore .44 shipped to your favorite CA
representative ,Congressman Cecil King, it took a year for that gun to get
C&R status, and I didn't buy it until AFTER it was approved. It was very
excruiating for the then-owner to go through that process - the barrel had
to be removed during that period, and as it dragged out, there was no assurance
that approval would ever come.

Finally, I think the math is correct. .595 + .395 + .01 == 1.0

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[JohnHenryD]

I think I heard that Nixon gave it to Elvis although no one knows what happened to it after that although someone thought that Nicholas Cage married Elvis daughter in the hopes of getting it but then Michael Jackson might have gotten it earlier but traded it in on the rights to the Lennon/McCartney songs. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[BUFF]

The FBI would have no right to confiscate it unless they can prove to a judge that it is probably stolen, and from who. They can only do that with evidence or procedes of a crime that can be prosecuted. The crime would have been theft, and the statute of limitations for such a theft, if there was one, would have expired some time ago.

If this gun was indeed stolen, it would be listed on NCIC, and it isn't.

If there were court procedings of any kind now, they would be civil in nature, not criminal. The "owner" seeking return of the pistol would have to prove ownership via a lawsuit and then get a court order to force the current possessor to surrender it.

With the exception of executing some civil orders and keeping the peace, law enforcement agencies have no power to become involved in civil disputes.

Unless there is some variance in federal criminal law that differs significantly from states' criminal codes, that's about it.

 

[rburg]

Not sure about your conclusions, Buff. I'm thinking that if it moved legally, some state and federal laws would have been observed. Like FFL transfers. What was Hoovers state of residence? What was Tolsons? How about the current care takers? Does it appear on his C&R? Or did it run in an 03 FFL book? This one could get sticky fast.

As I understand it, Hoover was a DC worker. He probably lived in VA, I guess. Tolson died in CA, I think. If the gun was still in CA, its probably either an illegal gun there, or is registered in CA.

So many possibilities. Its a sleeping baby. Don't wake it up. (one of my wifes cardinal rules.)

 

[mikepriwer]

Jeff, and others

The problem is not what is legal, or what has expired, but rather what someone might do.
For example, look at this Executive Order #6102 of Apr 3, 1933

Now, gold was, and still is, the only constitutional money. Paper is not. Its not even clear
that the Federal Reserve was ever authorized by Congress. And yet, by this order, real money was
being exchanged for non-constitutional paper money.

A seizure does not have to be legal - it just has to happen. Then it becomes a mess to try to
untangle it, and who knows what might be claimed.

You always have to keep in mind one very important rule: What the government giveth, the
government can taketh away.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[SG-688]

Possession is a continuing offense.

 

[BUFF]

Originally posted by SG-688:
Possession is a continuing offense.

Only if the possessor has a reasonable suspicion that it IS stolen. Being able to show that the possessor purchased it in good faith for a fair price is a pretty good defense in the absense of other proven information.

No one yet has shown any evidence that the Hoover gun was stolen. No police report, no NCIC listing, nothing.

Yes, this is one sleeping dog I would let lie, as defending oneself in a civil suit of this nature could be pricey.

 

[jspick]

I believe Buff has it closest to being legally correct. But what do I know?
There are many "interesting" ideas here. The gun has real value and there are many who would pay dearly for it even if they couldn't tell anyone about it.
You can discuss "what ifs" all day long. What is is what counts. I don't know much about Reg Mags as I just got mine and am learning a lot about it.

But let me interject that I once owned the whistle off of the Union Pacific #3985. This whistle had documentation to prove that.
Now the whistle off the #3985 is a holy grail in its own rights with rail road buffs. The 3985 is the largest still operating steam locomotive today.

I called up the head of the U.P.'s steam department and offered it back to the program because I felt it belonged on the engine. I would trade it for something of some value. The head guy threatened me with an FBI seizure of the whistle. I said you can kiss my *** and hung up. This guy at the U.P. is know for being a bully and intimidating people.
Several months later I got a call from a collector who heard that I had several whistles for sale. I told him about it. He asked how much and I threw out a rediculas figure and he got me the money. Never heard from the FBI or the bully at the U.P.

My point is you guys make too much out of this. The gun is not on the NCIC therefore possesion dictaes ownership.
I'd still adverise it like crazy and retire as it is probally worth at least $500,000 and more like $2,000,000.

The pre 64 model 70 serial number #1 was found about 20 years ago in the truck rack of a ranch pickup. At that time it was valued at over $100,000. Point of relivant value.

But this is just my opinion as we don't know where RM #1 is and if it does surface the possibilities are endless as to where it would go.

John

 

[mikepriwer]

One further thought occurred to me, again assuming that all that is known and/or relevant
is contained in this thread. By this assumption, I mean that,for example, the Government itself
is not claiming that it is Government property, and has its own search going on for it. Ie, this
was not mentioned in the thread, so therefore I presume there to be no such search.

My thought is that - this gun is in hiding, if it still exist, and there must be some really
good reason (or reasons) why it is hiding. I'm not aware of any other well-known gun that
has gone off the radar, like this one has. Whatever the reason(s) is for such secrecy, it
must be something that goes beyond the opinions stated in this thread.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[bk43]

As I understand it, Hoover was a DC worker. He probably lived in VA, I guess. Tolson died in CA, I think. If the gun was still in CA, its probably either an illegal gun there, or is registered in CA.

Hoover lived in a modest home on the NW side of DC. Right after J Edgar's death Tolson moved into the home and lived there until he died a few years later. Tolson died at Doctors Hospital in DC. However, the CA thing has a lot of potential to replace the now beaten to death "Tolson's heir in Texas" imaginings. You could work in Elvis, John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart and all kinds of neat stuff.

Bob

 

[handejector]

My thought is that - this gun is in hiding, if it still exist, and there must be some really
good reason (or reasons) why it is hiding. I'm not aware of any other well-known gun that
has gone off the radar, like this one has. Whatever the reason(s) is for such secrecy, it
must be something that goes beyond the opinions stated in this thread.

I don't think that is NECESSARILY so.
I, myself, like other dealers seriously involved in the trade over the long term, OCCASIONALLY encounter a hoarder/collector/accumulator that is totally under the radar. Just a reclusive type that does not have a high profile. On the contrary, they strive to maintain a LOW profile. They don't belong to Collector's associations, gun clubs, etc.
They don't brag, don't appear in magazines or journals, don't post on the internet, and don't display at shows. They lay pretty LOW.
Such a person sometimes owns dozens, or even hundreds, of truly impressive guns.......

 

[lw]

Mike, Et al: a few things of note on this whole subject; the main one being the mystery of it all....and I do realize it's been beaten to death here and other places over and over.

If you go back to the first post on this by Shawn, the website he mentions is mine and the wording there is from the website. I have posted it as a point of contact if anyone needs it. Although this subject was addressed also at another Smith forum recently, due to my not getting here often and probable clumsy "double posting," here's a couple of things:

Myself and a few other retired Agents from the Society of Former FBI Agents have been looking for the gun for some years; some longer than others. We have been in contact with hundreds of collectors and retired Agents and others who were working inside HQ before, during and after Hoover's death.

There's nothing "official" about our search for the gun; there's no "official investigation" with regard to it; it's simply one of the many projects the Society is involved in. If it works out that's fine; if it doesn't we're not going to lose any sleep.

Right now, it would be nice if we could at least simply account for it, as we've done with other Hoover/Tolson guns. If it's practical, and it might not be, we'd like to get the gun back to the Bureau's history program and I suspect it would end up on display at the new law enforcement museum in Washington with other Hoover items.

I think I can quell some of the FBI rumor and guessing out there by saying this:

1. At this juncture in time, based upon what is known, we at the Bureau CANNOT even put the disappearance of the gun on any time line; we simply CANNOT DOCUMENT the year the gun "disappeared." We're not certain Hoover had it at the time of death...we don't think so...but we're not positive. The inventory of his items does not show it, nor does the estate inventory. But then again, some of his other guns were not on these inventories either.

2. The gun is not found on any inventories of Tolson either.

3. Did the Director give it away? We're not certain and no evidence right now, one way or the other. The fly in this ointment, however, is we have found 2 incidences of him giving away, or considering giving away, 2 guns of the Nelson/Chase gang in the 30's to outside friends of his, one in the motion picture industry. This transfer was in fact completed.

4. Right now to our knowledge, there is not a shred of evidence the gun was stolen by anyone. We've heard all the " maid took it" stories and the like.

5. We're very much aware of the "Texas rumor" and Texas stories, however to date, there's no credible evidence of the gun being with anyone in Texas. WE are aware like many that an inquiry to Smith about the gun came out of Texas years back, but so far that hasn't proven anything. There could be multiple reasons for someone doing this.

Some retired Agents swear up and down they saw the Magnum in the Quantico gun vault as late as 1982. Right now we think this is possibly confusion with another magnum that was there.

6. Most importantly, based on the lack of substantiating evidence supported by conjecture and rumor and "sightings" is this: we're not really SURE the gun ever made it's way OUTSIDE the FBI ........it very well may have gotten lost internally, and this has happened before since until about 1980 or so the Bureau never really had a position of "Historian" among it's ranks as it does today.

(A case in point is Dillinger's .380 Colt he had that night at the Biograph. It was literally lost for decades and just found at HQ last November. The rumors were rampant for decades that Hoover gave it to comedian Red Skelton. Against all evidence of reports of the Agents there that night, books were written Dillinger was unarmed.) Not even close!

At this time, the current Bureau historian is checking some things internally to see if we can at least eliminate the possibility of the gun "hiding in plain sight."

The one thing that personally bugs me about the Magnum "rumors", sightings etc., is that they seem to fit the pattern of the same type of things we saw while looking for the Dillinger gun last year. The whole world was satisfied with a few existing theories, and some of them made money for people. None, however, were close to being true in the end.

We don't really expect anyone to step up and say here it is, and surely not on any forum. It very well may be with someone who has no idea what they have.

But then again, is the gun really and truly "out there"?

I hope some of the above helps, along with the context of the first posting on this thread by Shawn.

Cordially,
Larry Wack
Retired SA, FBI 68-03
[email protected]

 

[44 special Dave]

Q: Who's J Edgar Hoover?

Actually "I" know who he is/was. What I find interesting is that somebody might think the longer they hold on to something, definitely the more valuable it will be.

There will come a time when interest will wane for Reg Mag #1. We all think we're going to live forever, but alas, it's not to be.

However, reg mag #1 "may" be an exception, but like a lot of collectibles, strike while the iron is hot.

There's a lot of safe queens out there that we tell our spouses/significant others;

"they'll all go up in value, and we'll retire on the proceeds". For the most part, that's a prevarication if not an outright lie.

I have a friend who has been trying to sell some decent stuff only to be disappointed by the offers.

Dave

 

[rburg]

Originally posted by lw:
If it's practical, and it might not be, we'd like to get the gun back to the Bureau's history program and I suspect it would end up on display at the new law enforcement museum in Washington with other Hoover items.

Most collectors aren't impressed with the Bureau's treatment of guns, and especially Registered Magnums. That being the case, I wouldn't expect a rush for donors to start appearing. Giving a gun to the Bureau is signing its death warrant. It submerges and never re-appears.

 

[lw]

Actually Dick, the Bureau didn't do a half bad job with the old guns barring a "historian." The exhibits section guys and others did a decent job on preserving many of the old guns and other items of the eras which later appeared on the Bureau tours. With the changing of the tour exhibits, the removal of guns, the insertion of other guns, and the several times the Bureau changed buildings over the years, mistakes were bound to happen. (the "loss" of the Dillinger gun was an exception to the rule.)

But as retired SA Bob Frazier, who was one of the chiefs of the Firearms Unit circa 1940 and for years after once said to me: "We were investigators, scientists and examiners. One gangster's gun meant no more to us than another's. We were not historians and had no idea where these things would fit in 50 years later. We had a job to do at the time, to put people in jail, and we did it."

Dick, if you can give me a specific example of anyone "giving a gun to the Bureau" that ended up getting "submerged" I'd be happy to see what I can find out. This is a new one on me.

larry wack

 

[Onomea]

LW, thanks for your post. Interesting!

I think what Dick is referring to is that we have heard -- I forget where or from whom -- that the Bureau destroyed a bunch of Registered Magnums at some point in time, guns which had been Bureau issue to agents, and since collectors revere the RM the idea of someone systematically destroying them makes our blood run cold!

Frazier's quote makes sense. We all see the world through our own particular prisms, and this is often true especially in retrospect.

Since we have been waxing philosophical, to some extent, in this thread, I wonder whether if RM #1 is in the possession of someone who either does not know what it is, or who knows what it is but ain't tellin' anyone, whether it is like that tree in the forest which, if it falls but no one is there to hear it, did it in fact exist?